Interview with Ben Baader

MISHA FALK: Um, yeah. Then I'll give the... kind of introduce us, and then we

can... We can... You can just kind of talk at me, and then we'll... I'll have

some questions, and, yeah. Interested to see where this goes.

So, uh. My name is Jase [Misha] Falk, and I am interviewing Ben Baader for the

Transgender Oral History Project. Today is July 19th and we are at Ben's Condo

in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Um, could you please state your...

BEN BAADER: July 29th

MISHA FALK: 29th! Oh my goodness. I actually had to sign that earlier today and...

BEN BAADER: [laughing]

MISHA FALK: ... had completed forgotten it. Well, thank you for correcting me.

BEN BAADER: And it's a co-op.

MISHA FALK: It's a co-op! Okay!

BEN BAADER: [laughing]

MISHA FALK: Ah, I'm getting things wrong already. Oh my goodness. [crosstalk]

'kay. So, can you please state your full name for the recording?

BEN BAADER: Um, the full name is Benjamin Maria BaaderMISHA FALK: Okay. Thank

you. And before you... we start, I need to get your permission for the

interview. Um, do you consent to being interviewed?

BEN BAADER: Yes.

MISHA FALK: And, do you consent to the interview being audio recorded?

BEN BAADER: Yes.

MISHA FALK: Excellent.

BEN BAADER: [laughs]

MISHA FALK: So this interview is being conducted as part of my ongoing research

on Transgender Histories of Winnipeg and the 00:01:00Prairies. Um, oral testimonies are

invaluable documents for recording this history, and your interview may be used

by me or other researchers in the field to get a richer sense of transgender

experience in the region. Since trans people, myself included, are often

disconnected from our histories, my hope is that this project can create a sense

of connection for trans people for generations to come. I greatly appreciate

your contribution to this project. - - Um, so in this interview, uh, this will

be a bit different than our other... the other ones I've been doing. Um, I am

first of all interested to hear your life story, and in the first phase of the

interview I will ask you to tell me your life story as fully as possible. Um,

you can take as much time as you wish. We're interested in details, stories and

anecdotes, anything that is important to you. Um, there was a previous interview

done that captured a lot of Ben's life story already, so we may be referring to

that a fair bit, and possibly picking up kind of from the time that you first

came to 00:02:00Winnipeg, perhaps, as a starting point. And your life story does not

have to be in any chronological order. You may begin anywhere you want, with

your grandparents, your parents, your childhood, or anything else that is

important to you, and, of course, referring to the previous interview that was

done. Uh, if you are stuck, take your time to think about what you want to say

next. Long silences can be awkward or embarrassing, but please don't worry about

that. Take your time. In interviews silences are important. They give you the

space to reflect, recall, or collect your thoughts. Nevertheless, if you can't

think of anything else you would like to say, and would like me to ask you a

question, please just tell me. So this is not a test or a cross examination and

you may skip any questions, or end the interview at any point, without penalty.

If you feel the questions I am asking are too intimate or personal, or otherwise

inappropriate, please let me know. If there are questions you do not want to

answer, uh, you can also always say so, and if you don't want to tell me

directly you can just say that you 00:03:00don't remember. Also, we can turn of the

recorder at any moment during the interview if you would like to just talk to me

without it being recorded. So, please don't feel embarrassed to ask to have the

recorder turned off. Uh, in the first phase of the interview, I will keep mostly

quiet and give you space to tell your life story, without being directed by my

questions or interests. Uh, my responses to you will mostly be non-verbal, uh,

nods, smiles, eye contact, um, and I may occasionally ask a follow-up question,

but I will leave that mostly for the second portion of the interview. Um, we

will come to my questions later.

BEN BAADER: What was the story about eye contact?

MISHA FALK: Um, oh, just my responses to you are mostly going to be non-verbal.

BEN BAADER: Oh, I see.

MISHA FALK: Smiles, nods, eye contact. [crosstalk unclear] No, no, I won't...

BEN BAADER: Yeah.

MISHA FALK: I won't be... I'll be asking you questions later on. Um, so while

you tell your life story I may check the recorder once in a while to make sure

everything is working properly, and this is not a sign of my impatience. Um, I

may also take notes. Do you have any questions about this before we begin?

BEN BAADER: Oh good. Well, first of all, thank you. I mean thank you for 00:04:00 doing

this amazing project and putting all that time and effort into... into this

really wonderful thing.

MISHA FALK: No problem! Thank you so much for ...

BEN BAADER: [laughs]

MISHA FALK: ... being a part of this. Yeah, it's really fun to get to talk to

people, and yeah.

BEN BAADER: Yeah.

MISHA FALK: Alright, so, we can just begin then.

BEN BAADER: Yes. Um, I mean maybe, I actually just, you know, start out that the

first part of, you know, the interview, this life story, I've done in 2015 with

Oriol Poveda.

MISHA FALK: Yeah.

BEN BAADER: ...who did his dissertation and now has a book on Orthodox trans

people at the University of Uppsala and, um, and he's... and it's out as a book

in the meantime. Oh I should... It's um... I should've brought it. It's... I'm

forgetting the title. Anyway, we can fill this is later. Um, - - yes, so... So

we basically... and he came here to Winnipeg actually for a f-... for a week 00:05:00 and

interviewed me on multiple days. So the plan is to have the... the interviews,

both the transcripts and the original recordings as part of this project also

available to... to researchers.

MISHA FALK: So, I mean. I'm kind of here to kind of give you space to talk...

fill in any more aspects of that you would like. If you want to maybe talk a

little bit about coming to Winnipeg, since that wasn't touched on as much as

your... in your interview, previously?

BEN BAADER: I think actually that was quite... I did talk about those...

[crosstalk unclear]

MISHA FALK: Okay.

BEN BAADER: ...my process to coming to Winnipeg, and I actually... I describe

also a little um... I mean how... I mean I came for the job at the University of

Manitoba, um, and my job and application, I, you know, applied as female, and

my... I mean most of what I-- My letters of reference were, you know, for a

woman. So, and my 00:06:00doctorate advisor at the time, I didn't want to rock the boat

[laughs] so I didn't feel like it would be a smart thing to do, so I felt like I

really needed to get the job as a woman, and then, um, when I... And I actually

described this already for the interview I was very comfortable here. Then when

I... I was offered the job as a woman, but when I came here actually for to look

for an apartment, I... I told the head of the department, and she was wonderful

[laughs]. That was really, you know, so, um - - ... And then, um... Yeah, and

then... So, I... Yeah, so that's all in the previous interview already. Um, and

in terms of sort of my gender story. Um, - - I mean one... Winnipeg for me after

many... After really sort of a long, you know, um, 00:07:00journey in different cities

and places, and coming from I mean... I mean... What did I say? Like, in 13

years... Anyway, I lived in many different places, cities, and countries, and

continents, and Winnipeg was for me really... The time that I came here in

2005... where I could settle, and where sort of my being on the run ended. And

the transitioning, fully transitioning, was part of this. And, I mean, yeah, I

love Winnipeg. So, so, yeah, my life has really sort of come to, you know... I

mean, I've found peace here. - - And, and, you know, my university is wonderful,

has been wonderful to me in all sorts of ways, even though I'm a little strange,

not only in terms of my gender, and um, but I suppose [laughing]... I suppose

being a university 00:08:00professor is a good place to be strange [laughs]. I found a

niche where I can... I can be strange [laughs]. Yeah, but also my department is

really extraordinarily, you know, friendly, and welcoming, and has a wonderful

culture... The history department. Um, and I have a wonderful circle of friends,

and um - - yeah. My gender is not... You know, there was a Jewish story about

me, um, sort of being kicked out of, um... of a synagogue here, but, um, besides

that [laughs] - - things have been really been quite good here.

MISHA FALK: And good both in terms of, um, being trans as well as kind of the

Jewish side of it as well?

BEN BAADER: Yeah, 00:09:00I mean there's a wonderful Jewish community here. I mean, you

know, like, my big sorrow is I would love to have more of a Jewish Studies...

You know like a scholarly Jewish studies context. So, there is a little sad,

but, you know. That's one of my two complaints about Winnipeg, the second is I

would like to have a subway [laughs].

MISHA FALK: Wouldn't we all.

BEN BAADER: No, I mean, that's not very serious. Um, yeah - -.

MISHA FALK: So, then, do you want me to mostly move on to my... [crosstalk]

BEN BAADER: I think so

MISHA FALK: ... questions

BEN BAADER: Yes, that probably makes the most sense.

MISHA FALK: Okay, sounds good. Yeah. Sorry, this is... This is just a bit of a

different framework, so... than I've been used to doing with these interviews,

so I'm just trying... trying to get on my feet a little bit. Um, my first

question is perhaps a little bit abstract, but, uh: What does being transgender

mean to you?

BEN BAADER: Yeah. That's, 00:10:00uh - - [laughs].

MISHA FALK: I've usually had people give me their whole life story in person.

I've kind of built up to this, but it feels like a... Maybe a bit of a big

question to come out of nowhere... [crosstalk]

BEN BAADER: Yeah, you know, I mean... I sort of, I read my story in the last

hour, you know. So, it's not like completely out of the blue. I mean I read, you

know, the... the transcripts of the interview, so, but what, you know, at

least... at least the first part, um, so I don't know if... Um - - I think

mostly it is about in betweeness, about not-settledness, about... and in some

ways that is the theme of my life, this, you know, always, you know, if there...

Usually I say if there are two possibilities - - both apply to me [laugh]. So,

um, 00:11:00so it... and it mostly means richness. - - I mean there have been times and

places where it's also been hard, but... but mostly I love it, and I love also

the place where I'm living now, in this um, you know, sort of socially fully

transitioned, and the way I, you know, look and present. I mean, people need to

be quite in the know to recognize me as trans. I mean mostly, you know... I mean

particularly with the facial hair and so they just treat me as male. You know,

they often think I'm gay, because of my gestures, or so, something... You know,

so something seems to be a little off in my gender that they... You know, that

people think I'm 00:12:00gay, but, um... Um - - yeah, so I'm living in this male space

with sort of the complications of my body, and so, um, yeah, I like that. So,

and I understand my being trans really as, um... as an aspect of larger themes

in my life. I mean, being trans is not the major drama in my life. I mean

I've... I'm saying this... You know, I've said this in the other interview. Sort

of the major challenge in my life, is, you know, being second generation, having

my father being a, you know... a survivor of The Shoah and having grown-ups in

post-war Germany very much in the shadow of the killings, and so that is really

the major... I mean if I had to pick a sort of 00:13:00main challenge and drama, and...

of my life, you know, that is it. And the trans piece, you know, I often link it

to... I mean what I often do is comparing it to the way in which I'm [clears

throat] both, or, you know, or another aspect of this in-betweeness and the

primary in-betweeness if you want a... want a strange wording, um, is about

being sort of partially at home in the world of the living, and partially at

home in the world of the dead, and actually not being fully at home in either

place. So... So I'm having, you know, sort of... I mean sometimes for good

chunks of my life a sort of trouble being... feeling fully alive and fully at

home in the world, and - - you know, I mean, for a lot of long, good chunks of

life, as well as sort of 00:14:00difficult, but in the last years it also has sort of

opened the door, you know, for spiritual, you know, into blessing, into

something beautiful. So, it feels that my being trans is sort of part of this.

It's sort of an aspect of this larger way in which I'm not quite settled in the

world. - - In this world, or the other world. [laughs]

MISHA FALK: And in that... You, um, sent me an essay that you had written um,

where you talk a bit about your experience of gender in relation to

spirituality. Would you be able to kind of expand on that a little bit? I kind

of... I feel like you're making a lot of connections to that already, but...

BEN BAADER: Yeah.

MISHA FALK: Yeah.

BEN BAADER: I'm... I mean in some ways we need... Well I'm not... 00:15:00It feels like

you're asking me a little to replicate some of what I said there.

MISHA FALK: Okay, that's fair.

BEN BAADER: ...in some ways...

MISHA FALK: Yeah.

BEN BAADER: it feels like we should give a, sort of ad a bibliography to this

interview [laughs] with reference to this article and also the book by Oriol.

MISHA FALK: For sure.

BEN BAADER: Oriol Poveda. - - So, I think unless you have... I don't

MISHA FALK: You feel like you've kind of covered that already?

BEN BAADER: Well - - yeah, it's sort of... Yeah, I mean...

MISHA FALK: Okay.

BEN BAADER: ...it's the same topic. I mean...

MISHA FALK: Yeah, that's fair.

BEN BAADER: ...obviously this is a topic in which I, you know, I talk... You

know, that's sort of the main theme about this. In this essay, that's absolutely

right. Yeah, but if you don't have sort of a particular question in addition to

the essay...

MISHA FALK: Okay, yeah, no, I was...

BEN BAADER: ...fair enough...

MISHA FALK: Okay

BEN BAADER: Yeah. But yeah, we have mentioned the essay. Okay! Please [laughs].

MISHA FALK: For sure. Um, so has the language you use to describe your 00:16:00 identity

changed over time, and what drew you to identify with the language you use to

describe yourself with now? Whether it's trans or transsexual, or what not.

BEN BAADER: That's a good point, actually. Because, I mean... What language do I

use? I mean "transgender" is sort of the... an umbrella term that I'm, you

know... that I've been using mostly, and that sort of I'm comfortable with. But

I do use the word "transsexual" also. I mean, particularly the essay I have it

in the title, even though it's a bit of an old-fashioned term, and in some ways

I'm not even a proper transsexual only because I haven't had surgery right? So,

it's the typical definition of transsexual is sort of defined by surgery. Um, I

like it... - - I like it because it has a sort of a provocative ring that I

still enjoy, even though I'm also not a proper transsexual. 00:17:00 [laughs].

MISHA FALK: For sure.

BEN BAADER: So I... So yeah, I do use it. Um, I mean what I often do is female

to male. I'm comfortable with... It's actually interesting because Oriol I think

during the interview... At least he asked whether I identify as genderqueer, and

I didn't identify as genderqueer. So, but um... So he ended up using the term

"non-binary" for me, but um, I'm not so thrilled about this either, because, of

course I'm binary. I mean, you know, like I'm... I'm thinking about myself and

of doing a particular dance within the binary, but in some ways, of course, I

could go on, of course, and have a critique, or express a critique, about, you

know, the term "non-binary," because - - as a... as a, you know, identifier

because, um, you know, all gender 00:18:00queerness operates in the binary. I mean, we

can't help it. I mean, even if we... we, - - you know, inhabit very

unconventional positions, we do so in relation to the binary. So, I mean

[laughs]. So, I suppose if I had had an, you know... I mean I only came up with

this towards the end of the whole project, and I didn't want to bug Oriol and

it's fine, and it's really not so important in some ways, but um if I had the

choice between non-binary and genderqueer then I suppose genderqueer is more

appropriate. But it doesn't feel quite right, because, as I said before, the way

I present, there's nothing genderqueer about me. I mean it's... It's, you

know... I'm not... I'm living in a... I mean I'm getting really full male

privilege, right? I'm getting some of... of anti-gay feelings possibly, but I

don't think I'm being 00:19:00exposed to whatever hostility or danger in a way people

who live... you know, present as genderqueer. Um, so I'm... I feel it's a - -

you know... So, in terms of my social space I'm not genderqueer. In terms of the

way, sort of... I mean both what's... You know, the way I present in public and

what's underneath my clothing... There's a tension there [laughs] that one can

very much read as genderqueer. Um and actually... It's inter-... I've um...

That's another interesting piece. Um, well yes, and then my identity is... I

don't think about myself as a man. I mean I live in the space and the social

space of a man, but 00:20:00I... - - I mean, I'm not... Am I more man than a woman? I'm

not a woman either. It's sort of pieces of me. So in some way genderqueer would

be, you know... Would be fine. But I mean these are all categories. I mean, why

categories are interesting, because well you need to name your... You need to

walk around with a label, with a name, right? I mean it... You know, somehow

maybe you need language to describe the world around us and ourselves. Um - -

but I'm not very invested. And but... And these... And why I think why

categories are interesting, because it makes you... I mean, like basically what

I've been talking about the last I don't know three, five minutes, you know,

this sort of reflecting on my gender, you know, thinking about which label might

fit, which category might fit is, of course, and opportunity 00:21:00to do some

thinking. So, that's why it's... That's why it's interesting, and so, but what

was I... - - Um, - - so, I've actually... Yeah, there was a... Like I'm binding

much less than I used to. So, basically currently I only I do it in synagogue,

but in Orthodox synagogues, and at university, but not, sort of, in the rest of

my life, because it's just much more comfortable not to [laughs], and I

suppose... I don't know, between the facial hair and so I'm less, but I'm... I'm

less um... I don't care so much, unless... but it's, of 00:22:00course... I've had a

little bit of pressure. I mean, someone close to me pushed me a little recently,

or has been pushing me a little recently about why do I bind at all, right? Why

don't I just, you know, be who I am? Why do I sort of feel a need to squish

these private parts in order to look more male also, right? And it's a good

question. I mean, I think actually... I mean both in synagogue-- in Orthodox

synagogues... - - I mean, I have to... I have to think about... It feels... Just

I don't want to rock the boat. Would I be rocking the boat? I mean, it's like...

Am I being sort of unnecessary conformist? And it's a good question. And at the

university, I mean, for a while I... I said "I don't want to... I want the

students to focus on what I 00:23:00say, not at staring at me and trying to figure out

my gender" [laughs]. So, but maybe that's an excuse too? I think... I think they

should be able to deal with it by now. So... that's a good question. And that's,

of course, you know... - - I mean in some ways I've um... You know, gender

hasn't been... I haven't been preoccupied with my gender in the, you know, past

ten years or also since Oriol's interview. So, there hasn't been a dramatic

amount change, but, of course, there is always a little change about, you know,

how I live in my gender, and how, you know, what it means, and, you know, gender

expression, and so, yeah, so... Yes, so there's always some movement and change, yeah?

MISHA FALK: Alright. - - Um, can you tell me about 00:24:00your first experience

knowingly meeting another trans person?

BEN BAADER: Huh. - - That's such a good question. - - I mean, I think about my

time in Bloomington, Indiana. Well... Meeting in person... and my friend Sharon.

So, I met her, and I describe this in the other interview... I met her in the...

In a Jewish LGBT group, first not knowing that she was trans, and then- - you

know, and then she came out, and... and that was a... and she was crucial for me

to come out myself. So... In that conversation. So that was certainly, I mean

that was huge. Um, did I? I 00:25:00mean, in terms of - - um, um - - Leslie Feinberg's

"Stone Butch Blues" was huge, but I didn't meet, you know, Leslie in person, so.

But that was... I think that was maybe, in terms of a personal experience, the

most important text, like a few years before then. - - Had I met - - someone in

person before Sharon? Maybe not. [laughs] Yeah. Hmm.

MISHA FALK: Alright. Well, thank you. Um - - what kind of um social engagements

exist for the trans community, either... I'm sure you've... you talk about this

in your Oriol 00:26:00interview as well, but, yeah, what does the trans community look

like for you now?

BEN BAADER: Well, actually that's a bit of a... - - It's a complicated question,

because I basically have - - almost no trans community here in Winnipeg. It's

like in the beginning when I came here I reached out... I mean, you know, that

was when I came here the... My two sort of natural places to reach out was the

Jewish and the trans community. I mean, sort of, you know, where kind of um...

And... Or, in general the queer community, but I didn't make... Well, in the

beginning I had a friend who was... who was lesbian, but the relationship, - -

somehow it didn't... - - I mean, we're not... We sort of like each other and see

each other, or write each other, you know, emails once a year for our birthday,

but we really aren't friends. You know, we've kind of drifted apart. And in the 00:27:00beginning I was here I went to the Rainbow Resource Centre to... There was a

trans group, and that was sweet, but people were all sort of 20 to 40 years

younger than I was [unclear] [laughs] so - - and I have a colleague, but somehow

that relationship didn't grow. I have a trans colleague, so... - - I mean, I'm

now in touch with a few younger people, which is sort of - - you know, that I

enjoy, - - and I'm sort of interested in more connection. - - but no, actually I

don't have a ton of community. And then I'm... I mean I'm connected to the

Orthodox trans community [laughs], but they're sort of hardcore... I mean most

of them are hardcore... are sort of transsexuals who really 00:28:00think about, you

know, being trans as... as sort of... sort of in a way, sort of as pathology.

You know, I had a condition that was being fixed, and now I'm okay. So, I had a

medical intervention, and, you know, so... So, I'm sharing some things with

them, but I'm also not really at home with them. I have one trans friend, you

know, Jewish Orthodox, or, you know, Conservative, observant in St. Louis, Micah

[unclear] Ells, so that's really wonderful. - - I know a few trans, Jewish trans

people. I mean, so it's more... in Seattle. No, and I have... and I have... I

have, you know, through Eshel and through the Orthodox, you know, I know people.

Well, yeah, and I just... In Jerusalem I was just... part of my travels this

summer I spent some time in 00:29:00Jerusalem, and I had spent a beautiful weekend with

Yiscah Smith. We had known each other... Yiscah's really the only other Orthodox

trans person who speaks in public about her experience. Well, and I'm friends

with Joy Ladin, so... So there's a bit of this international Jewish Orthodox

trans community, but... - - Yeah, it's um... - - I wouldn't mind having more

here. - - And it's not... I mean... But, you know, partially it's also... I mean

partially I suppose it's coincidence. I mean, if... I think it would've been

different if I had really developed a - - you know, an intense friendship with

one, two, three of the trans, or even queer people I've met here. Somehow it

didn't 00:30:00materialize. I mean, you know, it somehow... And then I suppose the

Jewish and religious piece, you know... I mentioned... and an engagement

[unclear] were more important. So, in some ways, you know, like going to

synagogue and - - you know, even though what I share with most people there, I

don't know, politically, culturally... I mean in all sorts of ways, you know,

they're sort of Conservative straight people, right? [laughs] But... But I

still... I mean, sort of, the spiritual experience, the religious experience, is

still... I mean, that's where I want to be, even though I'm... You know, pieces

of me are, I don't know, lonely? I mean, whatever you want to... So, but, you

know, if you have... I mean that's sort of... - - When you have a complicated 00:31:00identity and these different pieces and parts of you are always lonely, and so

it's just... You know, it's very rare that, you know, everything fits, and then

I have the... sort of the immigrant piece, and you know, my German-Jewish

connection. I mean there's no context for that at all here in... I mean in

Canada. I mean very little in Canada. In Winnipeg, not at all. Nobody here

really gets my German-Jewish experience. I mean I've been educating a few

people, but... but there's no one who shares this sensibility here. Yeah, that's

quite lonely. I mean, and that's [laughs]... So, yeah, yeah... Yeah, so there's

not a lot of community, and it's not... Also it's not the most important piece

for me. That's... I mean that's, of course, also true. If it was really

important for me to hang out with trans people, I would make it happen. [laughs]

So... But I... I mean, I would love to also, you know, have more 00:32:00 connections

through this project, and, you know, we talked... I think we talked about it on

the phone a little... If there's stuff you can let me know about, you know,

invite me to things... I would be, you know, as far as I can fit it into my

schedule, I would love to be a little bit more connected, yeah.

MISHA FALK: Yeah.

BEN BAADER: Is there going to be - - like a party for everyone you interview?

MISHA FALK: Maybe. I don't really know.

BEN BAADER: That would be a great idea!

MISHA FALK: That could be really fun. Yeah.

BEN BAADER: [laughs]

MISHA FALK: Yeah, um...

MISHA FALK: I mean, we can talk more after the interview of course.

BEN BAADER: Yes, of course. [laughs]

MISHA FALK: But yeah, we can definitely talk more... [crosstalk]

BEN BAADER: It's a great idea.

MISHA FALK: Mhmm.

BEN BAADER: [laughs]

MISHA FALK: Uh, my next question was about kind of what... what kind of social

gatherings would take place for trans people or like and where that would happen

and you've kind of spoken to that already. You just haven't had much... But I'd

maybe be interested in hearing a bit about this... Your kind of international uh

connections 00:33:00of kind of how those have... I guess kind of how those have come

about, and like how those connections are maintained for you?

BEN BAADER: Yeah, I mean, they basically came about when I was um - - you know,

kicked out here of this particular synagogue. I was like - - "I need to talk to

people!" [laughs] Like, what we are doing also here. Yeah. Um, um - - yeah, and

that's when I reached out both, you know, in terms of my Jewish context and also

professionally, and I mean, you know, and being a Jewish studies scholar and...

and Gender studies, I had, you know... I had the contacts to make it work. And

what was very crucial for me is the organization "Eshel" that is an organization

for Orthodox LGBT people. So, um and I went to their yearly Shabbat in

Connecticut a few times, and that's where I made, you know... For example,

that's where I met the friend, you know... my friend Micah, 00:34:00in... in St Louis,

and you know his partner Aviva and um, and then I kept visiting them and met

other people. Oh yeah, there's a very sweet guy Raffi also, and, you know... and

then other... - - Yeah, somebody in Boston. Yeah, I mean, that's a really... I

mean that's where I met these people. And then... and then I'm a member of the

um Orthodox Trans Listserve "Dina" So, we're... Oh, I forgot how many... There

are a few dozens Orthodox trans people, English-speaking, sort of through... and

then really [unclear] ... You know, it's North America, Australia, Lond-... I

mean, England, Israel, you know... I mean, basically the English-speaking world

mostly. Um - - yeah. So, - - but most of the people, and there are these, you

know, 00:35:00transsexuals who have a very different approach to being trans than I

have. But it's still... I mean, I still like - - being on the list. Yeah, and

I'm... - - It's not... It's not the most-friendly setting for me, but I'm... - -

I'm still glad I'm on the list and I'm sort of listening and, you know, a little

connected to this particular world. - - So, yeah, but for example. So... So, you

know, it's email contacts, um... - - Oh yeah, completely by coincidence actually

I met Abby Stein in [unclear]. So um, - - which, yeah. When I didn't come to be

on [unclear] because... So she comes from a Hasidic family, you know,

transitioned... I mean [unclear] came out and transitioned relatively recently

in the past few 00:36:00years, like a... like a very sort of... I don't actually

remember which... - - Not um... not Satmar, but a very sort of insular Hasidic

family from a quite high-standing rabbinic... a little, quite insular Hasidic um

- - sect, group from a quite high-standing Jewish family from within group, and

um... Anyway, so she was quite in the press in New York, and so she happened to

be at the same, you know, [unclear] morning prayer gathering in Berlin, or

whatever, three weeks ago, so [laughs]. So, that's where I met Abby! [laughs]

Yeah, but she wasn't very interested in me. [laughs] That's okay. [laughs]. Um -

- 00:37:00yeah, but it was nice to see her. I mean it was... After having read a bunch.

sort of to see... get to see Abby in person, so. Yeah, and, you know, when I

went to Jerusalem I made, this summer... I made a point of one of the main

things I wanted to do in these short days I had there was, you know, meet Yiscah

Smith. Yeah, and Abby's not... I mean I didn't count Abby because Abby's not

Orthodox anymore. She's not observant anymore. So, she's... but she's... She's

public with her story, of course. [unclear] Um, yeah, I made a point to... to,

you know, spend time with Yiscah, so... So as far as much as I can I make a

point of cultivating these contacts, and I'm really missing my friends in St

Louis. I'm... I'm hoping to see them again soon. So [crow in background]

MISHA FALK: Uh, my next question is 00:38:00about uh what is your relationship to the

broader LGBTQ+ community?

BEN BAADER: Um - - Well, I mean some ways socially I've already talked about it,

in terms of my actual life here, very little, sadly almost. Um - - I mean

certainly in Winnipeg. Um, but I - - you know, - - as opposed to some peop-...

You know, most of the people on the Dina list, or some, are transsexuals... I

consider myself part of the LGBTQ community, or part of the, you know,

population. One should maybe say more than community, because I'm not really

connected to community very much. Um, yeah, so you know I'm not one of these

transsexuals who-- I mean they are transsexuals who really are very clear they

have nothing to do with gay or lesbian and they are just.. you know-- they had a 00:39:00medical condition that-- I mean I said it already, but, but they're sort of

insulted by the LGBTQ category and being lumped into-- you know-- they are just

"transsexuals" [laughs]. So no, I get the connections and I like-- you know, I

certainly identify and I'm also happy to identify "queer" so and my sexuality

can be all over the place [unclear] I have no particular-- I'm not sort of

limited to particular genders [laughs]. Yeah - -

MISHA FALK: And the next question is sort of um something you touched on before

but were there any support programs run by Rainbow Resource Centre or other 00:40:00institutions and that can be either here in Winnipeg or elsewhere.

BEN BAADER: Well yeah, I mean-- um-- It's in the-- in Oriol's interview my fff--

in terms of trans-- I mean I used to be part of the lesbian community so I have

a long story-- I mean long story, but I have significant and also political

involvement and there's also literature on that um, but it's in German, only you

know-- on the Jewish lesbian group in Berlin I was quite active in and... That

should also go into the bibliography [laughs].

MISHA FALK: For sure.

BEN BAADER: Um - - Even though it's in German, you never know. There might be,

you know, some people who...

MISHA FALK: For sure.

BEN BAADER: So, yes. So, there's the... And so I had a... Oh, but you're not

talking so much about groups, but also about resource centres. No groups, or--

MISHA FALK: Groups or resource centres.

BEN BAADER: Yeah, anyway. But my first trans group, that was 00:41:00actually when my

friend... when I met my friend Sharon, you know, my first trans friend.

Certainly she was my first trans friend, even if there was a trans encounter

that I not quite remember right now. Um - - um - - um... What was I about to

say? Oh yeah, she brought me to the Indy... So, I was in Bloomington, Indiana

at the time for a y-... for a semester teaching. That's where I met Sharon and I

was very much sort of questioning and scratching my head and, you know, sort

of... And I had for years - - sort of, particularly in New York sort of cut out

the... the phone number or the... the, you know, when they meet for the gender

identity group at the, you know, LGBT community centre in New York, and I never

went there, so. And then Los Angeles I was a year. Los Angeles after New York.

Then I, you know, sort of got the information about the appropriate group there

and I never went there, and then Sharon brought me to the Indy 00:42:00Boys in

Indianapolis of all places [laughs] after having spent, you know, plenty of time

in New York and Los Angeles, with much larger trans communities, of course,

right. So uh that was the other one. Um - - um - - yeah, they were lovely. They

were really lovely. That was my first... my first sort of trans group. That was

awesome. Yeah, that was very awesome. They were very sweet, and it was... And I

was trying out names, and... and yeah... I loved the Indy Boys. I mean, I was

there maybe... I'm not sure it was more than once. I mean, I was only there for

a semester and it took a while for everything to unfold. And then I was um back

in New York in the summer... - - Um - - I finally went to the gender identity

group in, you know... at the New York centre, and that was also very

interesting. That was, yeah... And that summer in New 00:43:00York... I'm not sure

actually I talk about this in... That was after... So, I had been in

Bloomington, Indiana. I had come out, was quite - - sort of in despair and very

- - um sort of in that space of... of... - - so my body [cat meows] didn't make sense. I had no idea where to go from here. I had no

other security. I was um - - um... and I, yeah... and I was scheduled to go, you

know... to go to Toronto... to move to Toronto for a fellowship in the fall and

I spent my summer in New York coming back from Indiana - - um. Yeah, and I did

sort of crazy things, like I got myself a fake moustache and went out to clubs

and took the subway at night in New York. I mean, it was really not safe. It was

not [laughing] a good idea! I'm very lucky! 00:44:00- - Ay-yai-yai. So, - - yeah, and

then I was in the... in the trans... in the FtM group in Toronto for a few

years. I lived in Toronto for four years. That was nice and fun. - - Yeah, and

then when I came here I checked out the gender identity... the group here,

and... but somehow... I suppose by this point... I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I

think somehow in Toronto the age range was larger. Here it was mostly younger

p-... And they were delightful and lovely and so on, but... but somehow we...

You know, I mean, then... Whatever, you know, they had struggles with their

parents, and I mean it's all, - - you know, completely appropriate and fine and

they were sweet people, but it was... I mean I went for a while as... as sort of

the model, you know... Someb-... some-... some-... someone to... to, 00:45:00sort of...

to modelling successfully doing this, but it was just not enough to [laughs]

have me... have me there. Yeah, but overall, I mean, both - - um Indianapolis,

New York, Toronto... These groups were hugely important for me and really all wonderful.

MISHA FALK: My next question uh is: Were... Well and again, you've touched on

this, but were you ever involved in activism, either specifically related to

trans issues or more generally?

BEN BAADER: Yeah, and then... So, the Jewish lesbian world very much so, and

again... So, we touched on that. Trans wise... - - Well, when was that? That

summer in New York. That is actually worthwhile spelling out for the record.

That was summer 1999. I mean also to show how 00:46:00much things have changed. I mean

it was sort of very modest activism. I marched at the New York Gay Pride... Gay

Pride march, with a trans contingent. Yeah, because... You know, having gone to

this group... And that was quite an exper-... I mean there was hostility from,

you know, the gays and lesbians... That was... and from the... from the

onlookers who were cheering the other... You know, it was... It was really... I

mean, we were sort of freaks. Within the gay and lesbian world we were freaks.

It was quite something in New York in the summer of 1999. [cat purring] So, this

has changed 20 years later [laughs]. So, - - but um... Well, and then I've done

a little activism if you want... if you want to call it this way, within 00:47:00 Eshel,

you know, because I... I mean, my understanding... So this is these Orthodox

LGBTQ um, or LGBT organization - - and - - when I was there - - people - - who

were running it were sort of um well-meaning, but utterly uneducated, and the

few trans people who were there tended to be these - - A-to-B hard-core

transsexuals, right? So, I tried to carve out some space for, you know,

genderqueer people, and just some safe space, you know, for trans people to

begin with within this gay and lesbian world... I mean that is... I suppose that

is... You know, if this has come up recently, you know, in a relationship I've

been having with someone in Seattle who identifies very much as queer, and for

whom... and for her - - 00:48:00friends, "queer" is sort of the equivalent of "home"

[motorcycle in distance]. Like queer space is safe space, and this is just not

my experience... I mean, you know, starting in Germany where, you know... with

antisemitism and the lesbian and women's world, you know... So, lesbian world

was not safe space [laughs] and... and, you know, the transphobic - - you know,

aspects of the, you know, the lesbian and gay world. I mean, so it's... For

me... So, queer is not automatically safe. I mean, you know, sort of I like to

be connected to "queer" and so on, but it's not... It's really not automatically

safe and friendly [laughs] So, So, - - um, yeah, and I talk a little bit about

this in the Oriol interview too. When I came out as... as trans, or I didn't

even come out, when I started to question stuff in this lesbian community in New

York, and 00:49:00well... and then - - New England where we went, and there was this

lesbian, Jewish lesbian camp fest [unclear] in the month. It was like terrible.

I mean, I was just sort of... I became the enemy by even asking questions,

right, so. So, that's not really what you asked about. You asked about activism

[laughs], but no, no, no, no, no.

MISHA FALK: I'm happy to hear anything.

BEN BAADER: I understand No, no. I understand. It's not... It's fine, but I was

just trying to, you know - - like really collect where we came from and

[unclear] lose my story. Yeah, so um... - - Yeah, so I... I.. So, I never did...

- - I... So, I did a bit of activism within the... But, you know, I... - - I

mean, in Berlin this lesbian activism, that was very... That was very

significant, and that was really sort of sustained political work... - - Um - -

within 00:50:00Eshel--I don't know you could call it activism, or not, but... but yeah,

I was trying to carve out a space for non-transexual queer p-... genderqueer

people [laughs], and just - - raise a little awareness, - - but my understanding

is that thi-... So, I haven't been to the national Shabbaton, you know, for a

few years, and my understanding is from what I'm hearing that things have become

much better. So, I'm glad to hear this, because they wore me out a little

[laughs]. So, - - yeah. - - Yes.

MISHA FALK: Next question?

BEN BAADER: Go on. Yeah.

MISHA FALK: Um, what has access to health care been like for you? Either for

trans-specific needs, or more generally?

BEN BAADER: I've been incredibly lucky. I've been incredibly lucky. I mean, - -

yeah, no, I've been. You know, I mean, throughout... I mean, my whole, you

know... German healthcare system 00:51:00was wonderful. Um - - in New York I was

completely privileged through the Columbia University International Student, you

know, healthcare was, I mean... It was completely, sort of, privileged setting,

compared to many other Americans [laughs] and New Yorkers. Um - - I mean

Toronto... Yeah, and - - this was fine, and here I immediately, or at least very

fast got into... got accepted into the Klinic here at Portage. I mean, so it's

really quite wonderful. I mean, I had never, you know, um [laughs]. I'm just

laughing, because I remember, like a few years ago, 2013, 14, I believe. I was

at the University of Michigan for a year as a... as a, you know, fellow - - um

[laughs] and I had a... I ended up having pneumonia, and - - I mean, it was also

university health system, right, and so 00:52:00again, you know, but it was, you know...

So... So, between my breasts and my Tzitzit, you know, Jewish fringes that I was

wearing [laughs]--She was fine. The doctor was absolutely fine! [laughs]. She

didn't blink an eye and was completely respectful! [laughs]. So, so, no, I've

been... I've been... I've been, you know, lucky and privileged and... and I

mean, partially, you know, travelling, and privileged settings and partially

lucky, and so, yeah. So. - -

MISHA FALK: Um - - do you have a sense of connection to younger transgender

people, and what would you like to tell them if given the chance?

BEN BAADER: - - Yeah, I love talking to you [laughs]

MISHA FALK: Thank you.

BEN BAADER: And no, and I have now in my life, 00:53:00actually in Winnipeg, sort of

three younger people where I tried to, you know, almost sort of mentor a little,

or be there for them. I mean there's - - you know... who are in various states

of - - struggle with their stuff. Um - - I'm not sure I have so much to tell

them in terms of, you know... because the world has changed so much. I mean, you

know, they're... It's very diff-... I mean, in terms of the larger setting, you

know. I mean, being trans is not an issue at a gay pride march anymore, right? I

mean, it's like the... It's... and... and... and really just... I mean, that's

anecdotal, but... - - I remember a few years ago, you know, teaching a seminar

in Women's and Gender History at the University of Manitoba, and... - - and when

we talked about "trans" it was this 00:54:00outlandish topic - - and today, you know,

like, really only a few years later, my students have trans friends, know about

it... It's not a big deal... It's part of their world, right? It's really not...

It's not very shock-... You know, it's not very outlandish anymore, right?

[laughs] So, within a few years for younger... I mean, you know,

for my students, you know... you... your generation... Things have changed

dramatically, like dramatically. So, on that level - - you know... So, my

story's sort of sort of dinosaur, right? So, um, you know, the personal

struggles are sim... remain similar... You know, making sense of your identity,

making sense of your body, you know. So, on that level... You know, I'm happy if

I can, you know, be there for someone. 00:55:00- - But I'm not sure I have a general

political message to young people, other than, you know, that it's beautiful,

that it's rich. That it's a... Yeah, and in particular people who, you know... I

mean the time of transition and ambiguity and uncertainty... - - You know, it's

terrifying. I mean it can be terrifying, - - but it's also rich and beautiful,

and there's a light... There's a shimmering. There's a, - - you know, there's an

openness. There's a... - - So, I would, to the extent that one can in a place

that is painful, sort of encourage people to [cat meows]... Yeah, he's... He agrees.

MISHA FALK: [laughs]

BEN BAADER: Um, [makes clicking sounds 00:56:00 [laughs]

MISHA FALK: Hello. [cat meowing]

BEN BAADER: So, this is Ali Baba--um joining the conversation [laughs] and if he

talks too much, we're going to remove him.

MISHA FALK: [laughs]

BEN BAADER: Um, so... So, to try to look at it... I mean, even, you know... [cat

meows]. Of course, with all the respect for the struggles and the difficulties,

and the confusion, and the way it can be sort of painful and terrifying and so

on, I mean, to live in-between genders, - - it's beautiful, and rich, and an

opportunity, and a... and a, you know, so... So... So, yeah. So, that's what

I... I mean, and that's what I try to do when I sort of speak publicly also, is

to encourage people to, - - you know, sort of listen to the beauty of 00:57:00 it.

MISHA FALK: Thank you. Uh this is onto my last question now. Um - - uh, which is

uh: Has there been any kind of art or writing which you have found which has

spoken to your experience, or given you a sense of not feeling alone when you

were coming to understand your gender identity?

BEN BAADER: Well, I mentioned um Leslie Feinberg at the time. So that was hugely

important. - - I mean, Joy I think I met more in person-- where did I meet Joy?

Joy Ladin. Because it's not so much her-- I mean her writings are wonderful and

beautiful. Where did I meet Joy? [laughs] I don't even remember where. [unclear]

um, because I don't think it was 00:58:00Eshel-- anyways. Um - - No, in terms of trans.

- - There's a text-- - - no, I can't think of any.

MISHA FALK: That's alright.

BEN BAADER: I mean, yeah - - so well, no no no no no, ugh, I'm blanking on her

name. Is it Bornstein? Kate 00:59:00Bornstein? No no, it was someone else. This is one

of the books that are still in boxes. Oh I love this book. You can turn the

recorder off for a second. [goes to check box]. She came to Indiana to talk but

I'm blanking on her name now, and that's a book that is... It's sort of queer

theory, you know, in an accessible format, - - and I loved that book. I

absolutely love that book, but I'm blanking on the name! We put it in the

bibliography! 01:00:00 [laughs]

MISHA FALK: Well, if you remember later, you can send... Yeah, send it to me... [crosstalk]

BEN BAADER: I send you the link.

MISHA FALK: ...and we can put it in the bibliography.

BEN BAADER: [laughs]. Yeah.

MISHA FALK: This is what I get for interviewing an academic.

BEN BAADER: [laughs]

MISHA FALK: We got [unclear] a whole bibliography to it! [laughs]

BEN BAADER: Yeah.

MISHA FALK: Well, yeah. If that's uh - - all you have for that last question,

that's the end of my questions. Um [cat meows], yeah, and it's I guess a bit...

a bit different since we uh... You already had kind of... [crosstalk]

BEN BAADER: Yes.

MISHA FALK: your own [unclear] story done. So, I hope that's kind of okay and

this has been...

BEN BAADER: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. No, I mean... Well, but I also said this in the other interview, um.

- - The most important text for me in terms of my trans, you know, both coming

out and orientation and so on were... You know, it was Judith Butler, Lacan,

sort of the academic readings about gender, right? So, [cat meows]... So,

[laughs]. Here we are [laughs]. - - So, so yeah. Yeah. - - Yes, thank you. So, um...

MISHA FALK: Yeah, thank you so much. Do you have anything else you'd like to say?

BEN BAADER: No. I think we're good.

MISHA FALK: Okay! Well, I can turn this off then.

Interview Ends