Interview with Kelly Houle

JENNY FOIDART: My name is Jenny Foidart and I’m interviewing Kelly Houle for the Two-Spirit Oral History archives project on October fifteenth 2022, at the University of Winnipeg. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? October nineteenth 2022 [both laugh]. Would you please introduce yourself?

KELLY HOULE: I’m Kelly Houle, I’m from Sandy Bay First Nations. -- I’ll start off with me, I guess. I was born here in Winnipeg, in 1967. I was brought back to my Reserve, after I was born here. I lived in Sandy Bay for five to six years. 00:01:00The fifth year, I was grabbed and taken to a residential school. It was only day school, and it was scary for me, I was like five-and-a-half. -- I was abused, verbally, physically. My ears were pulled, and— There was so much trauma, I don’t remember half of it because it was scary, even to go to the washroom, to walk by the priest’s office, because you’d get grabbed in. And you can’t go to the washroom alone, because that’s where you get abused. The kids all, we always tell each other, “Don’t go to the washroom alone. You will be grabbed, and dragged somewhere.” 00:02:00I heard many kids being grabbed and crying down the hall, somewhere. I always try to stay together, us kids. -- I get flashbacks of what happened. -- I healed a lot, through talking about it. Talked to my sisters. I lost my mother, my dad, my baby sister. [Long pause.] 00:03:00[Music begins to softly play]

That’s really hard. [Brief pause.] So, how I got out of residential school. We had recess, and I went out, and I didn’t want to go back in, because I knew something was going to happen, they were looking for me, the nuns were looking for me outside, I’d be hiding in the back of the school and I needed to go to the washroom so bad, so I just went in my pants. Somebody found me outside, they dragged me in, and they go, “You dirty pig.” I remember them saying that to me. -- Then they sent me home, 00:04:00just because I shit myself. I remember my uncle drove me home, he put me on a whole bunch of paper in his car, an old car, and drove me back to my grandma’s. And all my sisters and my oma siblings were just spread out all over to relatives on my reserve, trying to hide from Residential.

My mom took off from my dad, because my dad was a RCMP at the time. They got divorced, because we found his guns. He was RCMP, when they would go out, he’d hide them, but we’d find them, and we’re playing with them [laughs]. They got home, and the guns they’re all over the place, and they always argued about that because we always played with his guns. So, they divorced and my mother 00:05:00took off here to Winnipeg, in the early ‘70s.

I remember because one-by-one—my mom found a house out here, it was right on Selkirk Avenue, I remember—and I was next to come. My uncle brought me on a Greyhound bus, those old Greyhound buses that slide open, the windows, to the side, and they even had ashtrays, I remember, in the bus, people smoking, and that’s how far back I remember. I remember, yeah, being taken from my grandma’s and there I was and I remember just driving into the city, and I see bright lights, I’d never seen bright lights like that, ever. I was so happy, but scared, and shocked, 00:06:00and I go, “Oh my god, where am I going!” When I asked my uncle, “Where am I going?” “To your mum.” Oh, I was so happy.

So, I got to my mum’s. She had a beautiful house, and then one-by-one, all my sisters showed up. Then we were all together, all six of us, all my siblings. I only have one brother, four sisters. We started having Christmas, and oh my god, my mom would say, “You guys better go to bed! Santa Claus is coming soon!” We’d always try to peek through the cracks in the door, because we’d hear Santa Claus. We can hear his bells 00:07:00and he’s in the house, and we’re all in our rooms, “Don’t’ come out!” she’s going. I don’t know who the Santa Claus was, but he bought all the presents, and we’re only allowed to open one, so. -- The whole family was together, and we lost all that.

I remember my dad always used to send, wherever we were, wherever we moved, because my dad wanted us back, too, and he’d always send C.F.S. [Child and Family Services] on my mom, but we’d always escape out of a window. I remember at our second house, C.F.S. would come knock on the doors, everyone would be passed out downstairs, we’d crawl out the back window and tie sheets to the bed, 00:08:00and we’d all take off, and we’d go sleep in the yard, the schoolyard, where no-one can’t see us. We took our blankets and our pillows and that’s where we slept until C.F.S. was gone and all the drunks were up. There was so much sexual abuse on my sisters from those people partying up at my mom’s. They tell me now, they’re starting to tell me everything. Why tell me now? Now, I got to deal with this, now?

So, the stuff we went through, I wasn’t sexually abused, because I always ran away from it. People keep asking, “How come you are why you are like that?” I go, “I don’t know, I just grew up like that. I grew up with sisters, I didn’t have no brother.” My brother was a black sheep, he was always on the run. 00:09:00I grew up with my sisters, played dolls, yeah! I had fun with my sisters. We’d cut up magazines, make little couches, and cut up those women, -- we fold them up so they could sit on the chair, and you should have seen the stuff we made out of catalogues [both laugh]. That’s how we played, because we were poor. To survive, my family, my step-dad, they were alcoholics and -- to survive, we had to go garden-raiding, and even clothe ourselves, we’d go clothes-line-raiding, that’s how we survived -- through the whole 00:10:00‘70s, ‘80s.

I’ll tell you about my first day in school here, was at King Edward, it was my first school. It was old, it was higher, but now it’s down one main floor, now. That’s the first school I went to here in Winnipeg. I was sent to school, I was dropped off. I’d try to go sit in the front, and the teacher goes, “No, no, no, you’ve got to go sit in the back.” And the kids would call me a dirty Indian, and that’s where the word fag I first heard. I was called a fag for most of my life. -- Not my family, but relatives, and -- I just took it. 00:11:00-- I didn’t know what fag means [laughs]. I just took it anyhow. Through that, after that, I went home, I just cried and I go, “Mom, I’m not going back there. It’s just residential again.” She goes, “You better go back there, I’m sending you right back to boarding school if you don’t go back to school” [both gasp]. I go, “Oh my god,” I said, “I don’t want to go back!” Because it’s even worse where I came from. I went -- and I fought and fought and then I fought right through that school where I took grade one, grade two, then we moved, by William Whyte, right across the street another school [laughs]. 00:12:00And then that school, too, more fighting. I only fought with girls, because oh they call me fag, and then I started to find out what fag means [both laugh].

I didn’t know English when I got here, this is where I learned, well Residential, too, they taught me English. That’s where I got mostly abused because we always talk our language, they go, “Don’t speak your language!” And they cut my hair, oh! It’s amazing I’m not deaf from my ears being pulled. So, I fought through William Whyte, and I tried to do the best I can, in all these schools, but I survived through all of them, survival was my, my thing, right through school. -- Elementary, even high school. 00:13:00High school, -- I couldn’t even use the washrooms. I had to go outside, I had to secretly leave. Then I got caught once, from these boys, I was pissing outside, “What are you doing out here, you fag?” And then they beat me up. Then I went in, and I told, and it was my fault! I got suspended, they sent me home. It was always my fault. I go, “Fuck it”—I’m sorry—and I go off, and on, I went through lots, I might as well as keep going, keep going, keep going.

And then after that high school, we moved to -- Osborn, Fort Rouge, on Arnold, and there was more abuse there. I almost got raped by my uncle. 00:14:00I was babysitting. -- I was taking the baby upstairs, and then he came behind me, and in Ojibway, he goes “I’m going to fuck you, you fag” [gasp]. Oh my god, I ran with the baby, I ran into the washroom, I put him on the floor real fast and I slammed the door. I put my feet against the door and he was kicking it and kicking it and then the baby’s crying, and I’m yelling, nobody’s in the house, everyone was gone. I just stayed there, oh my god, so long, and then all of a sudden it was quiet. I guess he left. I didn’t tell anyone. My parents got home, I didn’t tell them at all, because it would be my fault, all the time. That’s what I, that’s how I think I took it all the time, is “If I do something, it’s going to be my fault.” Yeah. 00:15:00Because we had no support system, nothing for gay people at the time.

My second high school was R. B. Russell, there was more Natives there, I felt at ease. It was more accepting, but we were Native, but the fag in there was still there. I went, “When is this damn fag word going to go away [laughs]?” I was in high school, I was there until grade eleven, and then I met a friend, a trans friend at school, and then we went to another high school, -- Argyle? Niji Mahkwa, it was called at the time, and our teacher was trans, herself. Myra Laramee was her name [both laugh]. 00:16:00She was the best teacher we had! Most of her students were all gay, because we were all being sent to her class [laughs]. And we were so bad, she was “Get the hell in the hall!” She goes, “I know you guys are stoned” [laughs]. Because we started smoking up, and that was my first taste of drugs.

I didn’t know my friend was into something else, so she always had this money, we’re always getting weed, and we’re always getting chips and all that. I go, “Where are you getting all this?” She goes, “You want to make some?” I go, “Make some? What?” She goes, “Money!” Hmmm. So, she took me to go meet this guy, these guys that drive around Selkirk Avenue and that, and they’ve been around for ages. So, this guy picked us up, she goes, 00:17:00“All you have to do is sit on his lap and drive his car.” He’d be running over railway things, and you could feel his penis, you’re sitting on it, and it’s erected. I go, “Oh, that’s what you’re talking about!” So, he would hold us like this on our hips and every time we hit a railway thing he’d be going— We’d get like ten bucks. Ten bucks way back was lots. My mom was wondering how come I had a lot of friends and how come I had a lot of junk food [laughs]. “Where are you getting all this?” Then, she figured it out, -- and she goes, “Are you getting money from men?” I go “No.” She goes “Tell me!” and then I got a licking, and then she beat it out of me. Yeah, we used to get a licking from brooms, and— I survived 00:18:00through so much shit.

So, -- that was the sex trade that I got into. I’ve been in the sex trade for twenty-eight years, since I started that, I started when I was fourteen. I’ve been here in Winnipeg since, and I’ve been through so much, but you know what, I thought all the money was all glamour, nobody taught me how to love. I thought love was from these guys. Being touched, being abused, “Oh they love me!” I wasn’t taught how to love. Like I didn’t know what love was. I thought that was love. So, -- I just kept in the sex trade, 00:19:00and at sixteen, I was kicked out of home because I wouldn’t go back to school. Because I loved the money, and I got into it more and more and more. I was dressed as a boy, I was a punk rocker, and I still did the sex trade, but I met guys, guys, perverts, and, oh—and then my hair started growing—from Selkirk Avenue, then someone showed me -- Legislature grounds, that’s where all the boys were, the hustlers and all that. So, I started hanging around there, and I started being a hustler myself [laughs]. Then I started putting makeup on, and my hair was long, and then the guys told me “I think you should move out of here now, get away from this area.” Because I’m making too much money [laughs]. They go, “You better go where all the women go.” So, they kicked me off of there. -- We walked to Higgins, me and a friend. 00:20:00Oh, we made a killing there.

Oh, and then we got into more drugs. I think it was after ten years in the sex trade, I was into everything, I was already injecting heroin, speed, coke, you name it, it went into my veins. Oh, and Ts and Rs. Ts and Rs were just fabulous at the time. Talwin and Ritalin mixed together, it’s poor man heroin [laughs]. I could tell you all about these drugs, it was crazy. I survived through all them. I O.D.’d once in Vancouver. I came back home, and -- when I got back, I quit injecting. I’ve lost, oh my god, I think after fifteen years, 00:21:00I’ve buried over fifty friends, from across Canada, in every city, except for Toronto. All my friends are dead.

Then I started back out here again when I got back. It was okay for a while, another almost ten years, so it’s been twenty-five years into the sex trade. Nothing has changed, but it’s just money, money, money, party, party, party, that’s it, it was all glamour, and all that, yeah. You had the best friends ever, and then when you’re broke, you have no friends. Then when you have friends, it’s the only time to have friends [laughs] is when you have money. --

In 2004, it was getting more and more vicious. 00:22:00My friends were getting killed. On the highway, one got run over, from a woman, she said she thought it was a deer. There’s lights up there, we went out there, how can you, it’s not a deer. My friend already got hit, she’s already crawling on the highway, she ran him over! She goes, “I thought it was a deer.” Apparently, she kept driving. At the funeral, we had to have a closed casket, because she was too damaged. In 2004, we lost another one, Divas Boulanger. Did you hear about that story, here? I should have brought her t-shirt and put it in there, too. -- There was so much investigation on that one, and they found the guy. 00:23:00Everyone had the story, everybody seen her leave in that truck, when we were all at a corner. She jumped in that truck, and last time we seen her. I was supposed to go get her, and get her apartment keys, just over here, but we couldn’t find her. I go, “Oh my god, there’s something wrong, then.” After two days, then we started putting up posters. After a month, they found her body, just before Portage la Prairie, that stop there. Hunters found her body wrapped up in plastic. She was beaten to death. But we found the guy. He was trying to leave from here in Winnipeg, he was going to Vancouver, he had a boat out there, and he was going to travel around the world in that boat. So, he was going to take off, 00:24:00but they found—oh, she was so smart, she put stuff, he had a broken door, she put a little watch, a butterfly watch in the door thing, and she touched everything. She started stashing stuff in his truck, stuff that are broken, she put stuff in. All those stuff were found in his truck. -- The people that were interviewed, described that truck, and it was the same truck.

We even went to trial, my friend that seen most of it all, I was with her through it all, and they even put us in a motel, Headingley there, because we were scared. See if they were going to— That guy’s brother was a police officer, here in Winnipeg. That’s why we were scared a little, because we can be next. 00:25:00There was connected rooms, there was detectives in the other room, and we’re in the other room, and I go, “Oh!” Okay, we’re scared, too, because they have guns [laughs]. So, we locked our door, and they go, “Whatever you need, just call us.” We order a lot of food. It was okay. Then they had to take us from there to the trial. Oh, it was so much, -- so much crying happening through that whole trial. My friend was just crying there on the witness stand. Oh my god, because she has to say everything, and they -- showed a picture of -- the body, in plastic. They go, “Is this your friend?” 00:26:00Ah, she just burst out, oh, she couldn’t do anymore, she jumped out of the witness box and ran out in the hall and just burst. [Brief pause]. I miss my friends so much, but now, I got to move on. [Brief pause]. Yeah, the stuff we all go through, -- but after that, it was all over, I go, “I got to get out because I’m going to be one of these girls, I’m going to be murdered, or O.D. -- I thought, 00:27:00okay, I got to do something.”

In 2005, I exited the sex trade, after twenty-eight years. I go, “What am I going to do?” I was a client of Sage House, for all those years. Then T.E.R.F. [Transition, Education, and Resources for Females] came up, this organization from New Directions, they go, “Try this, it’s a transition program.” It’ll teach you life skills, everything, and with the help to live again, to be like other people, like work, and be trained, but they don’t train you how to work. It took me three tries to even finish this program, it was a year program. The third 00:28:00try, the receptionist—still works there—she goes, “You know what, Kelly, you can do this. I always drive by your place. Stand outside every morning, I will pick you up.” And sure enough, she did, every morning, for one year. She was right over here, upstairs the bus depot, T.E.R.F. was, New Directions. It was fabulous. I did all kinds of programs in there, I finished the program. I go, “What do I do now?” I even started fundraising, there. “What are we going to do after graduating, you’re going to give us these papers, and then we go home? Do we go back to our lives? We have nothing, 00:29:00nothing to go to work, we’re not trained for nothing. What are we going to put on our resumes, sex trade workers [laughs]?” Everyone started laughing. So, we started fundraising, right inside, we baked cupcakes, and we make all kinds of stuff, and we’d sell them inside to all the staff on every floor. We made enough to have a big dinner, and even to rent a limo. They picked me, of course, at the graduation to speak, because I’d been all [laughs], and I trained these kids how to fundraise. I didn’t know myself, but, “Okay, this is how. Here’s a money box, and everybody cook something, and bring it in, and we’ll all sell it, and the more money we make, we’ll buy more stuff.” That’s how it kept going, and we built up the money, 00:30:00up to five thousand! We used it all, we had a good graduation. Well, then I go, “Well, okay, I can’t do anything, now.” They gave me all these papers for finishing every program.

I went home to my Reserve, just to go relax, and say hi to relatives. I go, “Well, there’s nothing to do [laughs]!” So, I go to Band office, just to pick up a cheque, a welfare cheque, and somebody yelled out, “Hey! Winnipeg calling here, looking for you.” I go, “Who?” She told me who, and then I phoned, I go, “Hello?” They go, “Where are you, I’ve been looking for you. Thunderbird House is asking about you.” Because I was experiential, now, and 00:31:00they go, “You better go come back out here. They’re looking for experiential outreach workers.” Oh, I heard about outreach, and I go, “I wish I could be an outreach worker.” So, I went there, and they’re going, “Kelly?” And I go, “Yes?” There was four other ones, and I knew them all, too, because we were all on the streets [laughs]! I go, “We’re all going to be outreach workers?” They didn’t even interview me, they just go, “So, you want to work?” I go, “Yeah!” I didn’t know what to do, how to start, all of us. They go, “Well, come!” They showed me a big office and there’s four computers, one for each. They go, “Here’s your office, here’s your computer. You just go to work [laughs]!” Then we all sat there, looking at each other, “Okay, what programs do we start?” Then we start the Harvest support programs. 00:32:00I forget all the programs, but we had five programs running. I’d say through half of the year, it was a one-year term, everyone started quitting. Then I was the only one left. It was the eighth [unclear], four more months to go, and they called me into the office, “Kelly, you’re the only one left, should we shut this down? What are you going to do?” “You know what, let me deal with it.” So, I got volunteers to come in that wanted to work, but I could only give them honorariums, just to help me run the programs, like, “You guys do the Harvest, and I’ll do the support.” -- A sweat lodge we ran, too, the one outside 00:33:00at Thunderbird House. That sweat lodge, what other programs, other programs we had, and then they let me run it. I fulfilled the contract, and I finished all the programs, and they said, “We won’t be able to get more funding for this, but good job.”

I had a good resume, so I go, “Okay, I’ll try another job.” I looked around on the internet, and Ndinawe was looking, so I got an interview there, and that was my second outreach job [laughs], but I was more prepared, and I knew what I was doing. I worked through that, it was the hardest thing to work with, is children. Oh, they’re bad, 00:34:00I thought adults were bad! Oh my god [laughs]! You should have seen me, because you have to sign them in at the front desk, and then they’re going, “Okay Kelly you want to sit in the front?” I go, “No.” Because I seen this one guy sit there, and these mouthy boys are there, and they’re planning something, and I’m just watching. I seen that staff get punched in the face real fast, and those kids run out. “I’m not sitting there [laughs]!” I was there for a good year, and had to move on, I go, “Okay, I need something better, like I want to work with women, and trans women. Since I wasn’t a client anymore at Sage House, I was working now. Then, I got an interview at Mount Carmel. I was just shocked, 00:35:00because I tried many, many times to be staff there, and it wouldn’t happen, for those many, many years. I got interviewed, and they were looking for experiential, of course, to work with the girls that are going to Sage House. We had so much clients. I got hired, I started crying, they go, “What’s wrong?” I go, “I’m so happy!” I said, “You know, since I became an outreach worker, I promised myself that if I get a job as an outreach worker, I’m promising that I am going to help the girls. I was in their boots. I’m going to work with them, with all the girls, and trans, I will work with them constantly.” That was my promise to myself. I’ve been doing it since. Even though I’m not working, 00:36:00I still do my work, I still see my clients on the streets, they come up to me crying. I don’t say, “Oh, I don’t work anymore,” I go, “Oh my god, do you need some help?” I can only give them resources, and sometimes buy them a coffee, or just talk to them. That’s all I can do for now. --

Then after that, I don’t know, I was still lost, there’s something missing. In 2007, there was these people coming from Halifax, walking across Canada, for the Missing and Murdered Women. – And then I go, “Okay, -- I want to move, I want to—" 00:37:00I just left everything, I just packed a suitcase and, “Can I come with you guys?” And they go, “Yeah, but you have to do a presentation while you’re walking.” I go, “You know what? I will, because you guys are talking about missing and murdered women. What about the trans and Two-Spirit?” That’s why I walked, and I talked about in every town, city, reserve. Families would ask me, “How come don’t they talk about my trans son, my trans daughter? They’re missing.” I go, “That’s why I’m walking, I will carry that for you guys.” I kept going, and going, and going, all the way to Prince Rupert. It took us, from here, three and a half months. I walked, and walked, and walked, I cried, and cried. Oh, you should have seen Alberta, and B.C., beautiful animals following me, eagles. 00:38:00Oh, I was walking by a highway, on the side, there was a deer that came out of the bush and walked beside me, on the other side of the fence, and just looked at me, and I looked at him and just started crying. He just went jumping into the bush. That was a spirit, all of them are spirits. I asked the elder that was in the van, “Those are spirits?” “There are those girls.” I go, “Wow, wish I can find something.” That’s how powerful that walk was. Even the wolves, on the cliffs of the mountain, you can hear them howling up there, and barking. I never seen animals come close, like that, and they know -- what you’re doing, to find these girls. 00:39:00Then I made it to Prince Rupert. Outside of Prince Rupert, there’s a big, big tree, it’s really big. When I left from here, I went through thirty-two pairs of shoes, sandals, I mostly wore sandals. They go, “Keep your shoes, at the end, well, I’ll show you guys what we’re going to do, just keep your shoes.” So, I had a suitcase full of shoes, my shoes that were all wore out from walking. When we got to the end, she goes, “There’s the tree.” The tree all the way around, had shoes nailed to it all the way, all the way up. It was beautiful. On the side, 00:40:00I seen, this is crazy, thigh-high boots, black shiny ones, stiletto ones, and they looked brand-new, and they were nailed onto the tree, I’m trying to pull them off [both laugh]. I go, “Who would put these here!” Then she’s going, “No!” They wouldn’t come off, too, and I go, “Ah, shit.” I nailed all my shoes back up all beside them, and signed them inside. So, that’s what the purpose for those shoes, I wonder how high up they are now, that tree was really big. There’s all kinds of stuff, there, see how many walkers walked that way, already, for the missing. I’ve never walked so much. -- All the wisdom that I got from it. 00:41:00Then they flew me back home. When I got home, I wasn’t myself, I didn’t know what was wrong with me, for almost two weeks. I kept thinking, and wondering, I go, “What do I do?” All this stuff that I have heard and the knowledge, they said, “Keep it, and share.” I kept telling the people here, because they’re having a Missing and Murdered conference. I would go with my red ribbon dress to the conference. “Can I say something?” At the conference here they had once, I go, “Okay, all you guys keep saying “Missing and murdered women.” Can you put in your Inquiry the trans and the Two-Spirit, 00:42:00they’re not mentioned in this Inquiry.” Sure enough, now it’s added, right? When you go and do things, it happens. You got to believe in stuff. So, after that, where am I at [laughs]?

JENNY FOIDART: What year was the walk?

KELLY HOULE: 2007, I have a documentary. You can even see, in your class here, it’s called “The Walk.” Yeah, it’s fifty-eight minutes long. I’ll send it to you on Facebook. That was really fun, too, because they followed us from, 00:43:00where was that, Regina. The film crew, they had cameras and all of this, it was like a real film set [laughs] and it was beautifully done.

I got back, then what did I do next? Oh, I was at Nine Circles, next, and then more work there. Then, Manitoba Harm Reduction [Network], I’ve been with them, now, for sixteen years. I’m a peer, there, and still do a lot of work with them. 00:44:00Oh, no, 2007? I went back to Regina, and then I became an outreach worker there, at, oh what was it called, All Nations Hope AIDS Network. I worked there for a year or two. And then, that’s when I found myself. There was a Two-Spirit gathering, outside Montreal. We were just checking up on it, me and the staff, because we were mostly all gays that worked there. They go, “Let’s go! Let’s go check it out.” So, we rented a van, a sixteen-passenger, we took a whole bunch of trans people, sixteen of us in the van, with all their luggage, we were just packed. By the time we got to Montreal, everyone just hated each other [both laugh]. 00:45:00It was fun going there, but we passed Winnipeg, and then we didn’t even go through Toronto, we went around, that’s when everyone started arguing. Then we hit Montreal, and then outside Montreal, we hit where we were supposed to be going, by Saint Agathe, and it was beautiful. We drove in, there was a pond, so you could see all the canoes. We asked, “Where do we go?” They go “There’s cabins, go pick one!” I just dragged my luggage, I threw it in on the bed and I go, “Oh, I don’t even want to talk to nobody!” Because everyone’s mad. I go, “Let’s go heal myself. I’m going to go to that pond.”

It was like a little lake, I jumped in a canoe, and I started canoeing away. 00:46:00On the side of the shore, you could see dangling a cedar, on the other side of that little lake. They were building a sacred fire. I went around that way and I looked, I know what Muskeg Tea is, and I started to know all my medicines already. I go, “Oh my god,” you know, Muskeg Tea is on the ground. I put the canoe there and I pulled it. I had a whole bunch of cedar there already from the tree, and [makes pulling sounds] [laughs]. I had the canoe full of all the medicines, I had Muskeg Tea, I had cedar, and I canoed towards that sacred fire, and behind me, you know what was following me? Whole bunch of ducks, ah! They’re going, “Look! -- Grandmother Goose, they’re saying!” I go, “Why?” Look behind you! There’s a whole bunch of ducks following me! 00:47:00I go, “Why are they following me?” They go, they probably know, something sacred, or something anyhow. Then, I started asking, they go, “They know you’re a healing spirit.” “Ah,” I go, “Okay.” So, I dropped off all the medicines, it’s for the sacred fire and all that, and the Muskeg Tea I took into the hall, and everyone, whatever they picked— When you get there, I didn’t know it, there’s elders monitoring you as soon as you arrive and get off. They always monitor right through everything, to bring in the cedar and clean it on the table, and clients would come. Everyone that’s coming from everywhere, the States, Hawaii, it’s a big gathering. They’re asking me, “What’s this for?” So, 00:48:00I had to describe what the cedar’s for, the purpose, and the Muskeg Tea, why and how to make it. I told them all that, and I didn’t know there was an elder, sitting there, watching me doing what I’m doing! There’s all kind of programs happening, and I just kept asking, asking, I wanted to know, know, know, know, know and share and share mine. Everyone’s sharing their knowledge from where they’re from. So, all that, we shared. I didn’t know who the elders were [laughs]. And then after, I think at the end, we had a drag show. Of course, me, I brought a whole bunch of gowns. We were allowed to do however many shows you want, me, I’m on my fourth show, they’re going, “Kelly, take it easy!” I go, “No, I’m having fun!” 00:49:00And then, at the end, when it’s over, the drag show and all that, they go, “Okay! We’re going to pick an International Princess.” I go, “I didn’t know they were going to pick a Princess!” And a Warrior. Everybody’s all nervous, because you’re international, that’s what it says on my tiara. And you reign there until the end, until you’re gone.

JENNY FOIDART: So, you won? So, you’re the Princess? Oh, that’s cool. KELLY HOULE: I still am. Hmm, mmm. I’m on Facebook, we have this little Facebook thing, and there’s all the Princesses, what years. They’re all posted, in circles, yeah, I’m on there. I’m eighteenth. Some have passed away already, yeah, but they’re still Princesses [laughs]. 00:50:00After that, they crowned me, with the Princess before me, with her tiara. They took pictures, and I’m just shocked, “What, I’m a Princess, now? Gigglyanna!” After all the pictures are done, guess what that Princess comes and, “I want my tiara back! Make your own!” [Both laugh] “Okay, when I get home, I am.” I got one made, when I got back to Regina. That’s my second tiara, the other one, I lost in Vancouver. I got lost in Vancouver, for a good week. I only had my bank card and my status card, but I survived that whole weekend with it. I was homeless, 00:51:00I couldn’t find the way back to where I was staying, I didn’t have their phone number, I had it on my arm, but it all wiped off from the rain [laughs]. The only way I met them all was when our flight was due. I took a SkyTrain back to the airport, and I’m all grungy looking, they’re all there, and they’re going, “There you are, oh my god!” I go, “I survived, on the streets!” Then we all flew back, then I came back home here, too, and I go, “Okay, I got to do more work.” I got hired at Sunshine House, I think that was my last job.

But there’s still something missing, there’s always things missing 00:52:00in my life, I go, “Okay, there’s something I have to do.” Pride was coming up, and the Pride committee was happening, and I told my co-worker at the time, Levi, who was a program manager there, I go, “Let’s go talk to the Pride committee, let’s have a Two-Spirit Pow Wow.” Because we had it at our gatherings, but we can’t have it in public now? “Let’s make this happen, because it has to happen.” Sure enough, Levi goes, “I’m here with Kelly, she wants to join something into your Pride.” She goes, “Go ahead, Kelly.” I go, “Oh my, okay, I wanted to ask if we can have a Two-Spirit Pow Wow?” They all looked, and they’re going, “[gasps]” they didn’t even hesitate, and they go, “Of course!” 00:53:00They even had a big tent for us, and they picked an area, but it was too close to the alcohol thing, but a lot of people showed up. You should have seen the people, they’re bringing their kids that are lost, and they want to find themselves. So, when we did the Grand Entry, you can see the kids with their parents, they’re all crying. Then after we finished, the Grand Entry, they all came with their parents, they’re going, “Can we dance? Can we wear what your wearing?” “You can wear whatever you want. This is Two-Spirit. Nobody’s going to judge you, here. You got to be yourself. Put makeup on. Be yourself. Nobody’s going to judge you, here. Nobody’s going to call you down.” Oh, you should have seen, 00:54:00oh I started crying. The kids are all crying, because they found themselves. They came every year, and they’re all dressed up. Now I see them, they’re bigger. They wear a lot of makeup, they’re themselves, like they found themselves. I go, “Oh, see, helping people.” It feels good right here, and to make them be themselves, not to be ashamed, not to hide, that’s what kind of work I liked. Love yourself, because so much of us in our communities, they are beaten, and they don’t know where to go, there’s no way out. The only way out is suicide. I’ve seen so much of it. I go, “This has got to change. 00:55:00These people need help.” That’s why there’s so much organizations and programs for trans people, now, because we paved their way, the young ones know. They can do the work that we taught them. That’s a lot of them, now, doing a lot of work. I love it so. They can carry on, because us old ones have to watch now, and maybe guide them, because they usually come and ask for help, from all of us. “What do we do? What can we do? What cannot we do?”

That one I hate, when they say, “What cannot we do?” I go, “That word should not be used, you can do anything you want. The only one that’s going to give you a hard time is the government [laughs].” 00:56:00After the Two-Spirit Pow Wows, and the documentaries, I’ve done so many of them, I want to put them all together and share. I’ve been doing presentations on them, there’s a university on Selkirk, there. I’ve done one there on The Walk documentary, they loved it. Then after that, I retired, and I’ve been just at home. I’m in committee, still. I’m still helping out, anywhere I can, and make sure things are run right. -- Hopefully, there’s a job offer I’m getting, I’m thinking about it, 00:57:00 yeah.

JENNY FOIDART: So, you’re not done yet.

KELLY HOULE: No, I’m not done yet, I’m not giving up [both laugh]! I’m so happy to donate my regalia to the University of Winnipeg, here. I’m happy it’s in your guys’s hands, and I’m real happy to come and present about it. Each item that I have there, it’s from all over.

JENNY FOIDART: Would you like to tell us a little bit about the regalia, right now?

KELLY HOULE: Regalia. The jingle dress helped me a lot through my struggles, it’s a healing dress, as you guys must know about. It was bought up way back from this guy in Ontario, I had a dream of the jingle dress. Yeah, it’s mine. 00:58:00Why I picked that jingle dress, because I had my vision. It was up on a stage. I was with a friend. She’s a dancer, herself, and she was watching me, and there’s all old elders in the audience—I’m on stage—they’re in wheelchairs, or with their walkers, I go, “Oh my, this I strange.” Then I look, I’m wearing a shawl, a fancy shawl outfit. Then, they’re going, “Dance!” So, I started dancing, and then I turned around, and then I had a jingle dress on. I go, “Oh!” Then they go, “Dance!” So, I started dancing and they all started clapping. Then I took that to an elder, and then they go, “Make a jingle dress. That’s your purpose, 00:59:00or that’s your vision.” So, I got that made, and that’s where it started off, and that’s when I started dancing, and to get to know more about Powwows. I didn’t know much. Moccasins, I went through, I think this will be my fourth pair [both laugh]. They fall apart, so duct tape is always well-needed at Powwows [both laugh]. I’ve noticed, I go, “Why are people carrying duct tape?” They go, “It fixes everything.” Sure enough, I started carrying duct tape, duct tape’s the best. The ribbons, they always went in my hair, braided right in. They’re really, really old, too, so 01:00:00I put them together, and I just dance and I carry them, which helps a lot. The earrings came from a friend, another dancer. What else is in there. Oh, my tiara. When I got back to Winnipeg, I got that made, and the Powwow was coming up, and I didn’t have a tiara. This girl goes, “I’ll make you one! What kind do you want? How do you make it?” I showed her, I go, “You take an ice cream pail, sketch it out like this.” She put it inside, but the leather goes on the outside. She did it in one week. I go, “Oh my god, girl! Oh!” I started crying when she brought it to me. It was so heavy, and I go, 01:01:00“Oh my god! You did this is one week!” She goes, “Yeah!” -- That was the best thing that she did for me.

JENNY FOIDART: I’ve got to ask you, so you said Myra Laramee was your teacher? And Myra Laramee—

KELLY HOULE: Yes, Doctor Myra Laramee, now.

JENNY FOIDART: Yeah! So, have you met up since? Did you ever—

KELLY HOULE:Yes, yes, yes. She go, “You! You!” [both laugh] she goes, “Are you still bad?” I go, “Of course.”

JENNY FOIDART: That’s awesome.

KELLY HOULE: Do you have any more questions?

JENNY FOIDART: Well, I guess there’s lots of questions about identity, like, how did you, when did you know, like that— Yeah.

KELLY HOULE: When I was trans? 01:02:00I was eleven years-old, I had a friend, by William Whyte, he was a neighbor, too. We started putting on makeup, and it was hard to take off! Then, my mom finds out, and “You’re wearing makeup!” Uh huh, so ever since, she knew, but the fag word still kept going on, so it didn’t bother me after that. I just fought my way through high school. Every school I fought through. I survived it.

JENNY FOIDART: Are you still a fluent speaker?

KELLY HOULE: Ojibway? Yeah, I’m Salteaux. I’ve been taught a lot of Cree, because I grew up with a lot of Cree trans, that I was living out here with. 01:03:00So, we taught bad words to each other [both laugh]! It’s the only way we could laugh and talk, yeah.

JENNY FOIDART: Wow, we covered a lot of it. Is there anything you’d like to tell younger or future Two-Spirit folks? I mean, it sounds like you do that a lot.

KELLY HOULE: Follow your dream. Don’t let anyone judge you. Just do what you have to do. And no fighting [both laugh]. The Creator loves you, is all.

JENNY FOIDART: Is there anything else you’d like to add?

KELLY HOULE: No, I think I’ve got my whole life? I’m still moving on, still going to keep fighting for trans and women, 01:04:00that are having a hard time on the streets, and in their community, and their reserves.

JENNY FOIDART: Thank you so much, it’s been an honour.

KELLY HOULE: Yes.

JENNY FOIDART: Should I turn it off?

KELLY HOULE: Yeah [both laugh].

[End of interview]