00:00:00
CHIPPEWAY: I'm going to turn this on now. So its recording now, but I just
want to kind of record what I'm doing and everything. I usually turn it on right
away to kind of capture me getting ready. Woops. I wonder what I did. I'll press
the volume up. Not sure what I'm going to do, but that's okay. Its recording.
Numbers are going. Okay, I pressed a button and I'm not sure what it did. So, I
just want to note the person we're interviewing -- whose name I haven't gotten
yet. What's his name or her name?
KER: Their name. They use they/them for pronouns.
CHIPPEWAY: They? Ok.
KER: Maariu.
CHIPPEWAY: Maariu, oh ya, Maariu. You introduced yourselves earlier, I'm
terrible with names.
COSTA: That's fine, same.
CHIPPEWAY: And if you can fill that out. And then we'll fill this out, and then
we'll fill this consent form at the end, which will kind of give you agency over
your interview whether you want it made public, whether you want it stored for a
00:01:00while. There's a couple questions here about the picture. You didn't want your
picture taken. And if you didn't want your picture taken that's fine. I haven't
actually taken anybody's picture, but maybe if were out there and I can take
your picture then that's where that will come in. And then different things down
here. I'll have you fill just that part now, and then the most important thing
there is I guess your name, and your email address. That's all you should give
now, just name and email address. I mean, people move around a lot, and you know
what I like when you were talking about papers, getting papers, and when you're
intersect/trans identified, also when you're homeless. A friend of mine was
talking about when we were coming here, driving here this morning, and a friend
was saying that they're going to be travelling outside of Canada in the fall,
00:02:00and she's homeless. And she has to get her ... well she has to actually stay ...
but she's getting her passport.
KER: You want to physically send her places. I don't physically ... its annoying.
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah, yeah. So when you get your passport and you have to identify
your address, and or the last ten places you lived, that becomes difficult.
KER: I hate that.
CHIPPEWAY: I hate that, yeah me too.
COSTA: I had to go through something similar. It just was difficult, didn't make sense.
CHIPPEWAY: Mmhmm.
CHIPPEWAY: So I'm just noting I'm with Maariu.
COSTA: What's the date?
KER: 5th.
CHIPPEWAY: August 5th, yeah. Is filling out ... I'm just kind of giving a play
by play, because the people [loud noise] who hear this, this will give them an
idea of what's happening. So, I just want to note that I'm here with Maariu
Costa, who is from Regina, and a friend of Ker's. And I just want to explain the
00:03:00project. Maariu you read the project description I think.
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: I just want to give a little ... just to say that Albert, the old man
inside the main lodge, I don't know if you even know Albert. He's kind of not
the lead in this project, but it was kind of initiated by steps that he took in
terms of all of the stuff that he's collected with respect to his activism
within the two-spirit community. He's donated all those documents to the
University of Winnipeg Archives. And subsequently, the two-spirted group of
Manitoba and the Oral History department want to gather stories of the
two-spirit community, but I'm defining that very broadly right now, just meaning
everybody within the LGBT2S community. And they want to expand that collection,
and part of that expansion includes gathering stories from people across Canada,
00:04:00and there was no better place to do this than this gathering. So, the idea kind
of just happened, and then it was suggested to do these interviews here. And
that really rolled really quickly, because the dates were already set, whereas
sometimes you plan a project and its months, and the whole planning part, but
this just happened within a month. So, basically, the point of this is to gather
stories from two-spirited individuals, specifically at this gathering. And then
to have these stories collected at the U of W Archives, and then made available
to researchers, to academics, to people interested in two-spirited history,
maybe to family members of yours two hundred years from now.
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: So, with that explanation, and with that understanding, I just want
to get your oral consent that you're okay here to be interviewing you. I
00:05:00explained properly what we're doing, and you have a general idea of what the
questions are. But, because you're from out of town, and a guest, but I actually
meanwhile ... I'll ask that in a few minutes because you're a ... I don't know
where I was going with that actually. But I just want to get your consent to do
this interview, which I think I already asked eh?
COSTA: Yeah. No, you have my consent. Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: So, first I want to just ask Maariu, are you a guest here? Or did you
register for the gathering? Or how did you end up here?
COSTA: Well, I'm a guest in the sense that it's not my home territory, but I
didn't register. I wanted to, but by the time I saw the registration, it was the
day passed the due date, so I didn't end up registering in time.
CHIPPEWAY: And did you come with the QUPAC? [?]
COSTA: Yeah. They sponsored Ker, and so, I was able to travel through that.
00:06:00
CHIPPEWAY: I apologize, are you indigenous?
COSTA: Yes.
CHIPPEWAY: I apologize for asking, I wasn't sure. I'm trying to make sure. Not
that it's a requirement or anything. Okay so, that will kind of ... I'll
probably follow the questions more closely then. So, I guess I just wanted to
ask again, is this your first gathering?
COSTA: Yeah, like in the sense it's just two-spirit people coming together, and
just existing, and not having something to work towards.
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah, because there was actually a gathering I think a couple years
ago in Saskatchewan. Did you go to that one?
COSTA: No.
CHIPPEWAY: No? Okay. I think it was in Batoche.
COSTA: Yeah I remember that was happening.
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah. How did you hear about this gathering?
COSTA: This one?
00:07:00
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah.
COSTA: Through Ker.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh yeah. And you're from Regina? How come you're in Winnipeg?
COSTA: Just for this.
CHIPPEWAY: How did you guys get here? Plane? Or--?
COSTA: We drove. Well, I drove.
CHIPPEWAY: So, where are you from?
COSTA: Well, I'm living in Regina. I'm registered to Peepeekisis First Nation in
the File Hills Region. But, some of my ancestors are from there, and some were
relocated from Key Reserve. So I have Cree and Saultaux ancestors.
CHIPEWAY: I guess are you status? So to speak Western idea of --
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Do you have a Treaty Card?
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: You get your five bucks every year? [Laughs]
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Do you get five dollars?
COSTA: I don't collect, but I do get it.
CHIPPEWAY: Do you know what Treaty number you are?
COSTA: Four.
00:08:00
CHIPPEWAY: Oh yeah. So, what are the Res's you said your families are from? The Reserves?
COSTA: Well, the only one I have any relationship to is Peepeekisis.
CHIPPEWAY: Peepeekisis.
COSTA: Well, it's actually pronounced Peepeekisis.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh okay. I'm going to pronounce it wrong it every time I say it.
COSTA: Do you want me to give you the spelling?
CHIPPEWAY: No, it's okay.
COSTA: You got it. Okay.
CHIPPEWAY: Where did you grow up?
COSTA: Mostly in Regina. And then about seven years in Toronto when I was
younger, because that's where my dad grew up and his family is. They came over
from Sicily.
CHIPPEWAY: You're essentially from Saskatchewan?
COSTA: Yeah. I spent most of my life there.
CHIPPEWAY: Okay, okay. And how do you identify yourself?
COSTA: Well, I identify as Two-Spirited.
CHIPPEWAY: You said your pronouns are they/them?
00:09:00
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: How do you live in a world ... I guess I just want to go back
actually. You said you identified as Two-Spirit, have you always identified that
way? I just ask, because there was a lady I talked to who identifies no longer
as Two-Spirit, or maybe at one time she did, but she now identifies as
man/woman. But she pronounced it in her language. Well, even before that, she
identified as lesbian, and Two-Spirt, but she didn't like that binary, kind of
man/woman. So now, she defines herself by using language from her own language
which means man/woman translated. But this means more than that, within her
language. So, I was just wondering, you call yourself Two-Spirit now, did you
00:10:00always identify as that?
COSTA: No. So, when I was born, I didn't have what would be a more traditional
"walking out" ceremony. So, I was assigned male at birth. I grew up with
ceremonies and stuff, being trained in that kind of way. And that was okay with
me, but eventually, as I got older, started exploring my sexuality. I think I
identified as queer for a long time, probably during high school or something,
that time around there. And then, in my young adulthood, started exploring my
relationship with gender, and that's when I started definitely claiming being Two-Spirited.
CHIPPEWAY: So, you're wearing a skirt now, was there a time when you started
00:11:00wearing skirts? Was it around that time when you started exploring gender?
COSTA: Yeah I mean, it's kind of funny, because before I started finding out I
was Two-Spirited, I wore things like dresses out of solidarity. But, it was
never something that made me feel like this is something I'm supposed to be
wearing. I felt comfortable, very comfortable to be in. But, it wasn't until a
few years after those kind of experiences that during a sweat ceremony that I
just had the urge to put on a skirt and go into the lodge. So, it has multiple
meanings for me to wear skirts and dresses. I think the visibility, and making
sure that space exists for future generations is important to me, but it's not
00:12:00something ... I feel just as comfortable wearing a pair of pants as I do wearing
a dress.
CHIPPEWAY: So, when you went into the lodge for the first time wearing a skirt,
what was the reaction?
COSTA: It was good. That particular lodge was something my mother put together
for me when I told her about how I started identifying, and it was a group of
people I had known for a while. It was very comfortable. It was I guess what we
call a "coming in" type of event.
CHIPPEWAY: A "coming in" type of event? Could you talk about that? Like what is that?
COSTA: Well, I think we have these conversations around "coming out" to your
family, or a community that you live with. But I think for indigenous people, it
is more of a "coming in", because of our histories with diverse gender
identities. I mean, there is definitely a lot of impact from colonialism, that I
00:13:00think "coming out" stories are totally valid, but for me, that wasn't my story.
CHIPPEWAY: And you mentioned community. Can you tell me about your community?
COSTA: Its people from the city, and surrounding area that mostly Cree and
Saultaux people that do ceremonies like sundances, and lots of different lodges
together that I've grow up with. My grandfather was the one that started
building that community with them. He was originally a pastor actually, in a
church. And when my family was given the ultimatum by the church; either give up
00:14:00your traditional indigenous ways or come to the church, they obviously gave up
the church. And then started building with this community. So, it's people that
have had a relationship with my family for multiple generations.
CHIPPEWAY: I was wondering if you can tell me about your two-spirited journey.
You had mentioned that you identified as queer in high school, or around that
time. Have you always known about your two-spirited identity? Well, you said you
didn't identify, but have you always known about not being straight? And not
being that concept of what straight is, and straight male is in our society?
COSTA: I think always to some degree, maybe it wasn't always explicit. When I
00:15:00originally told my mom that I identified as Two-Spirited, she brought up that as
a child I would always come to her in this kind of melancholy state, and she'd
asked me "what's wrong", and I would just say "I feel like something's missing".
And I mean I don't remember how exactly I was feeling when I was three, or four,
or whatever, but I feel that kind of signifies that I knew something was ... I
was questioning things I think as soon I was able to form my own thoughts. So,
yeah, society and things have a big influence of how I identified as very young
person, but I questioned that more and more growing up.
CHIPPEWAY: What were your teenage years like?
COSTA: I hated my time during high school. It was difficult, because I didn't
00:16:00have the processes I've developed now to deal with anxiety and depression that I
was going through at that time. So, it was difficult. Most of my peers were
white in the city. So, I felt pretty alone with how I related to the world in
terms of my spirituality.
CHIPPEWAY: Did you have any two-spirited friends?
COSTA: No.
CHIPPEWAY: No. When did that --
COSTA: I mean I definitely had lots of queer friends. But, in terms of people
that I can share my indigeneity and my queerness with, I was alone in that.
CHIPPEWAY: Even within your queer friend groups/circles?
COSTA: Yeah within either ceremonial family, or you know my friendships during
high school.
00:17:00
CHIPPEWAY: So, I just want to clarify. So you were "out" in high school, and it
was hard, but you still had a circle of gay and lesbian friends kind of?
COSTA: I mean, most of my friends were actually straight, but it wasn't like I
was "out" and queer. I felt comfortable with my sexuality, but I wasn't "out". I
don't think I was known as someone that was "out", or anything like that. And
it's not something that I would ever try to hide. I mean I definitely wore
things that made people think maybe in some type of way.
CHIPPEWAY: What about your young adult years?
COSTA: So, I took some time off after high school, and then went to university
for about a year. And then it was after university, I took off to a camp in the
00:18:00bush. And I was still identifying myself as male. And it was after a year, or
just under a year, that I spent ... I think, being on the land was the biggest
influence of me being able to listen to my body, and also having a community of
queer people to just let me be myself.
CHIPPEWAY: So, when you said you were connected to land, how did that look?
COSTA: It was a place sixty kilometers away from the nearest town, so off the
grid. But, you know, there was fresh running water, we had everything we needed
there. But, we'd spend every day on the land doing stuff, building things, we
00:19:00were always busy and everyday was different.
CHIPPEWAY: Can you tell me more about this cult? No I'm just kidding! [Laughs]
COSTA: Sure [laughs] do you want the address?
CHIPPEWAY: [laughs] No, what was it exactly? How did you get there? The idea of
being a young adult, and leaving the city just seems foreign to me, only because
I'm such a city person. What called you? How did you end up there? And what was
it exactly?
COSTA: So, I grew up hunting and had a lot of great teachers that helped me
learn how to survive on my own, on the land. So, that's a skill I had from a
young age, and I'm actually wearing the shirt from the camp right now. So, this
00:20:00camp is ... it was set up in the route of a proposed pipeline corridor in
northern BC [British Columbia].
CHIPPEWAY: Oh so the camp ... I'm just a little confused. This camp is different
from the one you went outside where you were living off the grid outside of Regina?
COSTA: Oh no, this is the off grid camp.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh okay, and this is northern BC [British Columbia]?
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh okay, because I noticed your t- shirt. I'm trying to make the
connection but the t-shirt looks very ... the design is very west coast
indigenous. And so you were saying about the camp? The place?
COSTA: So yeah, I think throughout my young adult years, I was conscious of
different ways people had, and we were currently resisting colonialism,
00:21:00especially resource extraction, and the tar sands. So, the reason that I was
interested in this camp is because these are all pipelines coming from the tar
sands going towards the west coast. So I had just been watching this camp for a
few years and always ... I knew people that went out there, and I knew that I
wanted to go there at some point. During high school, or not high school,
university, after a couple semesters ... I mean I never though it was going to
be for me, but after a couple semesters I knew it wasn't for me. And I went
through a breakup at the same time, and I said "I just need to get out of here,
I've always wanted to go to this camp. I might as well just go right now". I
went there for a couple months, came back home for eight months, then went back
00:22:00for nine months. And that's all the amount of time I spent out there.
CHIPPEWAY: Did you live in a tent? Or a lodge?
COSTA: Yes, when I first went out there, there was one cabin, and we built a
large bunkhouse. It was just a building filled with bunkbeds. So then when I
came back again, it was during the winter, so I stayed in there. And then during
the summer, I have the tenting hammock that I stayed in.
CHIPPEWAY: So you're comfortable living like that?
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah?
COSTA: Oh I love it.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh wow. And the reason I asked that kind of so surprised is because
this is my first time camping at this thing, and were not even that far from the
city. But, I can really enjoy my experience doing it, spending the night in the
tent, in part because when it was raining in the tent I got- was obviously
00:23:00bought from the dollar store, so it leaked. I'm sure if it hadn't rained it
would've been a better experience. But, my association with the land doesn't
sound at all ... isn't at all connected the way it sounds like it has been for
your entire life.
COSTA: Yeah I wouldn't be who I am if I didn't have that.
CHIPPEWAY: You said you've gone hunting. Like big game? Or I guess in Canada big
game is moose and elk.
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah?
COSTA: Yeah, I think I first got a deer when I was about thirteen. And yeah, I
got elk, and moose, and things like that. And also small game, like trapping rabbits.
CHIPPEWAY: Is there ceremony you do with all of those when you hunt?
COSTA: Well, the first deer I got there was a ceremony. And yeah, the whole
process is ceremonial. You have to have a lot of respect for what you're doing
00:24:00definitely. You know, I see a lot of hunters that don't have any respect, but
you know I go out there and those animals are giving their lives to me so.
CHIPPEWAY: So you can skin a deer?
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Wow. What is that like?
COSTA: I love it.
CHIPPEWAY: Do you eat the liver or heart? [Laughs]
COSTA: Those are my favorite parts. The organs. Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah? [Laughs]
COSTA: That's what I live for. Nothing would make me happier than liver.
CHIPPEWAY: It just amazes me, to speak to a two-spirit person that really enjoys
hunting and all of the stuff associated with going out into the bush and hunting.
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPEWAY: Yeah. Well I grew up in the city, and I'm such a city person. I'm a
little envious in terms of your association with the land, and how you say you
00:25:00were brought up on the land and hunting, and you have a good relationship with
it. So, can you tell me about your family? They seem really supportive of you --
or your mother anyways.
COSTA: Yeah, I mean, both my parents are supportive, and lovely. I think my mom
is definitely better of a parent to support me. There's sometimes I kind of wish
or expect more from her. But I think yeah, she's still in my corner, she's
always there for me. And my dad is too, but my dad is I think a little just a
bit more ignorant.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh yeah, and he lives in central Canada?
COSTA: He lives in Toronto now.
CHIPPEWAY: In Toronto.
COSTA: He used to live in Regina. But they split when I was pretty young.
CHIPPEWAY: Do you connect at all to your Italian side at all?
COSTA: I mean, my dad taught me how to cook a lot of Italian, so I got to cook.
00:26:00I don't speak any of it, my dad does. Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Do you have family in Italy?
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah? Or Sicily?
COSTA: Yeah in Sicily, and Syracuse.
CHIPPEWAY: Have you ever gone there?
COSTA: Not yet, but I will.
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah?
COSTA: Yeah. I will be going.
CHIPPEWAY: So, were kind of at the end of the interview. I just want to ask you
where do you feel safest, and why?
COSTA: In the bush, because I know how to deal with wildlife, respecting animals
and stuff. That'll be mutual. In the city, people aren't like that. Like sure,
00:27:00getting mauled by a bear sounds terrible, but I know how to deal with bears, you know?
CHIPPEWAY: You just fight back. Just kidding. [Laughs] How do you deal with bears?
COSTA: Well, you obviously have to know when you're in bear country, so you're
not surprising bears, that's when they get startled and attack. If you usually
wear a bell, or something, or just make lots of noise, then they're not
surprised. And if you do bump into them, you know, just don't go that way.
CHIPPEWAY: So, is there anything that I haven't asked that maybe you want to
speak to or anything?
COSTA: I don't know. [Long pause]
CHIPPEWAY: I'm so amazed that you're a real hunter, [laughs] you really know
your guns.
COSTA: Yeah fairly well.
00:28:00
CHIPPEWAY: I guess it's just a rifle?
COSTA: Yeah, I usually hunt with something like thirty caliber.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh neat.
COSTA: I feel like if you go bigger than that you're just being excessive and
over compensating probably.
CHIPPEWAY: It's like when you see the whole association of guns in the United
States, there's like automatic rifles, like what's the point?
COSTA: There's self-defense to that. I'm not going to go hunting because that'll
just tear apart what you want to eat, there's no point in that. I mean, I
wouldn't mind having a small rifle, they're fun to shoot. And I probably would
feel safer with one.
CHIPPEWAY: Do you have one?
COSTA: No, just have the rifle
CHIPPEWAY: You just have what?
COSTA: The rifle.
CHIPPEWAY: So you do have one?
COSTA: Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: Yeah. Where is it?
COSTA: It's on my Reserve.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh. How often do you get to your Reserve?
COSTA: It's been a long time since I've been hunting, but I go out to my Reserve
00:29:00like four, five times a year.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh. Neat. Well I want to thank you for this interview. And you know
what I want to mention that Ker is sitting in on this interview, sitting very
quietly, but I just want to note that Ker and Maariu, I'm probably pronouncing
your names wrong, but are both from Regina and they came together. So thank you
Ker for bringing me to Mario, Maariu.
COSTA: Maariu
CHIPPEWAY: Maariu, and I appreciate that, and thank you for sitting down for
this interview.
COSTA: There's something I want to mention that I just thought of.
CHIPPEWAY: Oh for sure.
COSTA: Throughout my time going to the different frontlines like this, I've met,
you know, two-spirited people that are pretty similar to me, like they love
being on the land, and hunting. I think that relationship with the land is like
00:30:00... you can't cut that away from Two-Spiritedness with indigeneity. Yeah.
CHIPPEWAY: I know what you mean, I like that.
COSTA: And I feel like that's kind of left out of the conversations sometimes,
because that conversation kind of happens in city centers a lot., and I know
that there's a lot of people that still live on the land, and have those relationships.
CHIPPEWAY: It's good you say that. I just want to note for the audio that those
with who are doing the interview, yeah this interview is very ... the questions
are obviously formatted from whether pronoun by myself, but really geared around
urban living. And I wonder, had I grew up outside the city of Winnipeg, outside
a city, and actually I'm a very city person, If I would've formatted, or if I've
00:31:00would've drafter these questions a little differently. An interesting thought
that you ... that's what got me thinking about indigeneity and the land, and how
were so ... some people are just have been connected to all their life, it's
always the story of people being brought back to it. You always had a connection
to it, and probably throughout the course of this interview, that connection, I
probably had a little surprised in my voice is because being two-spirited, and
connected your entire life kind of goes against the normal, well not normal.
But, the stories that I've been gathering in terms of people, they've kind of
been brought back to the land, or they've been reconnected, rather than always connected.
COSTA: Mmhmm.
CHIPPEWAY: No, this is really informative, thanks again.
00:32:00
COSTA: Yeah, thanks for doing this.
CHIPPEWAY: Thanks. Thanks for recommending Ker! Say hello.
KER: Hi, I'm here.
CHIPPEWAY: Thanks for recommending Maariu.
KER: Yes.
CHIPPEWAY: I'm going to stop now. Okay.
