Interview with Gayle Pruden

SENECA CHARTRAND: I'm with Gayle Pruden, we're at the Two-Spirit gathering in Beausejour. It is August 3rd, 2018. August 4th, 2018. So, is this your first time at the gathering?

GAYLE PRUDEN: Oh no, I've been to quite a few others. I go to Dallas, Texas. It's been the past three years I've been going to Dallas Texas. They have a regional Two-Spirit gathering that I'm always invited to. This one is international, and it's going to be going to the states next year, it'll be two years in the states, and two years in Canada. And they're wonderful, I love going to them. I feel so relaxed, I feel like myself, I just ... what I should say is like I do always feel myself, doesn't matter where I am, where I go, but here, I could tell when I first see people here, they're so quiet, they're so - 00:01:00- sort of like reserved, and they don't want to talk, but once they get to know and feel the atmosphere here they just let go, like they're just totally themselves, who they should be in everyday life, instead of always hiding what you really want to be. And, I was like that too at the beginning where I wasn't able to be who I wanted to be. But then, the more I started hanging around my kind of people, I started feeling more comfortable, and I think these gatherings are doing that, especially to the youth that come. They're able to express themselves who they'd like to be, and that's really wonderful to see. I'm really proud of them coming to these Two-Spirit gatherings, just to explore how they can live an everyday life without judgement. This place is free of judgment. You 00:02:00can be what you want to be, here. And yeah, I've been to Montana Gathering, I was there quite a few times. I would tell people "try your best to go to theses gatherings, just to experience it, even one day. Just come and experience and see what's going on, meet other two-spirited people", because - - I don't know, in public, it's harder to meet two-spirited people because they're not sure how of you're going to react to one another. But here, that's what it's all about, it's an open place, and just be yourself, and be able to meet other people 00:03:00without giving it a second thought of "oh what are they going to think?", or in society you need to worry about that because you never know how dangerous it can be just to be yourself out in public. But, here, it's more gentle, and feel at home, it's a place where you belong. And that's what I love about theses gatherings is just the relaxation of your everyday life. And for me, I don't know, I don't accept negativity from anybody. If anybody gives me negativity well so be it. I don't accept it, I don't take it, I don't respond to it. I just let it go. Because things like that like if it accepts somebody else's negativity, it's just going to build up in you, and it's going to hurt you, so 00:04:00don't accept when anybody has anything to say negative at all. And if you need to talk to somebody, you'll make the connection with Creator. Creator is the one who put us all here. And it's very easy to connect with Creator through tobacco. Putting your tobacco in a sacred fire, you pray, and you know that Creator does listen. You can feel it in your heart, even here, you could tell there's spirits here, there's grandmothers, grandfathers, they're all here, and it's a real wonderful place to be. And I will continue going to these Two-Spirit gatherings, even though my life is involved around powwow. I have been dancing over fifteen years now, jingle dress, and even there, I'm accepted in there. And that's the 00:05:00thing about ... I usually try and talk about how anybody can come into the circle, you can dance whatever you feel is right to dance, as long as you know the sacredness of this regalia that you want to wear, and get the teachings behind it. Because people will ask "what is it you're wearing? What is the purpose? Where did you get it?" and then my answer for that is "Creator gave me the sacred item to share and to use for myself". So, it's a really good teaching place when it comes to these two-spirited gatherings.

SENECA CHARTRAND: How did you get into powwow?

GAYLE PRUDEN: When I was younger, I always was around ... like if I'd hear a 00:06:00drum somewhere, I was always so drawn to it. I felt so relaxed, I felt the healing from the drum. But I never dared step foot in the arbor, I never stepped around the regalia, because I didn't know anything about it. Coming from a Christian community, we were always told "don't go around stuff like that, it'll be dangerous for you, you don't know what's in there". So, that's what I did. I never went in, until, I started having this dream of myself. I could see the back of myself, and there was a silhouette, like a circle, but I couldn't see what was going on. I knew there was lots of activity going on on the other side, 00:07:00but I just couldn't see. I was standing there like half my body, and I could tell that's me from behind. And I'm wearing this black dress, and on this black dress there's little shiny, real really really shiny, little things hanging on the dress, and I couldn't understand what the dream meant. So, finally, I went to an elder and I asked "why do I keep having this reoccurring dream? What does it mean?", and with her big smile she says to me "Creator is giving you a gift. And you're going to have to accept it, and you're going to use it in a good way", "okay well what's the gift?", "You're going to be dancing jingle. That's a jingle dress that you're dreaming about". I just sat back, I looked at her and the thought that came to my mind was "no way in this lifetime will I ever be wearing a jingle dress" simply because I did not want to insult women with that, 00:08:00because I knew that was a woman's dress, in the sacred circle. So, at the beginning, I just let it pass, I didn't want to dance jingle, because I was too afraid to even talk about the jingle dress. So, I got really sick, I ended up in a hospital, and then that dream kept coming back again, the same dream. I went and seen that elder again, and she asked me "did you make that dress?" and I said "no". Then she says "well there you go, that's the reason why you got sick, you're not listening to Creator. Creator is gifting you a sacred item that you got to make, and you got to dance". So, that's when I didn't know anything about making a jingle dress. I've seen them, they're beautiful, and I heard them, but 00:09:00I just couldn't picture myself wearing one. So, I went out asking about these jingle dresses, the meaning behind them, what are their purpose, and I got all the teachings about the jingle dress. Then I found somebody who can help me make a jingle dress, and I did. So, I had it. I finally got myself a jingle dress, and I didn't want to dance in it still. I was holding myself back. Then I started going to powwows in this jingle dress, and I'd sit there, and I'd watch everybody else dancing, until one of the elders jingle dresses dancers came up to me and says "I always see you sitting around, but you're not using your jingle dress. You're sitting there. You should come into the circle with your jingle dress, it's beautiful". So, that was really nervous for me to do. So, I 00:10:00listened to her, I went walking with her, and then she made me feel really comfortable wearing my jingle dress, and I started walking, that's when I started dancing. But, before you go to dance in the sacred circle, you need to be initiated into the family of powwow. And I had this two-spirited friend who happened to be in WayWay [Waywayseecappo First Nation], and that was the first place I danced. I told them about this jingle dress, and he said "oh my god, that's so wonderful. I'd really like to see your dress. I'll find you an elder that'll dance you in, and you will be initiated. Come to our powwow", so I said "okay". So when I started travelling there, I kept stopping, I kept pulling over, I wanted to come home. I said "no, I can't do this, I can't go through with this". Then I find enough courage, I start praying that I go again, and 00:11:00finally I made it there knowing that I was late already for Grand Entry. On purpose I wanted to be late [laughs] because I didn't really want to dance. So, I sat in the car and I figured "okay I'll go and look and see if he's there". Sure enough he was right at the door. He comes at me "where's your dress?" I said "it's in the car", "go and put it on and you come back in here, we have this elder that's going to dance you in" and I said "okay". So, I went back to my car, and I put on the dress, as slow as I could. I was taking my time because I was so nervous, I was so scared. I didn't know what was going to happen, and I didn't know what to expect. So finally, I got dressed, and I went walking. And right off the bat, I loved the sound of that dress. I could barely hear it, but 00:12:00I just loved the sound, because with the jingle dress you can't hear your own dress, you can hear other dresses, but people can hear yours too. So, I went in, that elder was there, I gave her a gift. I gave her tobacco, plus I had some money in an envelope, and I gave that to her. So, she says to me, "Are you ready for your new life?" I said "yes" "okay" she goes. She walked me ... there were people dancing already because I was late. And I was in my dress, and she walked me close to the arbor, and then she just pushed me in. She says "enjoy your life, don't ever look back again" and that was it. I said "oh my god, now what do I do? I don't know how to dance, I don't know what I'm doing. So, but she said before that she told me ... no that was afterwards. I couldn't dance in a straight line, I thought you were supposed to dance in a straight line. I kept 00:13:00going to the left, I kept going to the right, and I just couldn't keep in a straight line. So, I went back to her and I said "I'm not able to dance right" and she says "well how do you dance right?" I said I can't make that straight line, I keep going to the left, I keep going to the right", she started laughing at me. She says "so what you're telling me is that you've never sinned in your life, you never did anything wrong, you never drank, you never did drugs, nothing. Is that what you're telling me?" I'm like "no, I never said that", "well when you're dancing, you don't dance in a straight line. This is your red road, just let yourself go. If you're going to turn right, turn right, and if you're going to turn left, turn left, because there's spirits in the sacred circle. And there are spirits that will want to use you when you're dancing, and let them. You're fighting it, that's why you're not able to dance a straight 00:14:00line. But I've never heard of anybody dancing a straight line, because it's your walk of life, it goes back and forth, up and down. So, just let yourself go". So, I did. Started walking, and I was watching the other jingle dress dancers, and I was trying to keep up with their steps, and I just couldn't do it. But, I kept going. So now, fifteen years later, I just love it, it's my life. As soon as I know there's a powwow I have to go, I have to be there, simply because of the drum. There's so much healing coming from that drum, and knowing that I'm dancing for people. And I do dance for a lot of people, because they will come up to me, they give me tobacco, they give me sweet grass, any kind of medicine for me to dance for them for a healing, and that's what I love about it. So, that's how I started dancing, is receiving that gift that Creator gave me, and 00:15:00learning the teachings on it, and also learning how to dance. And, I was so scared at the beginning too, I didn't want to fall down. I figured "oh my god, I'm going to fall down, I'm going to mess up". There is no messing up when you dance, you dance from the heart, whatever you feel is right, you'll go right ahead, and you dance. So, that's how I became a jingle dress dancer. I know so many people now, I feel so protected. I'm not worried about that though, but those elders usually reassure me. You make sure if anybody ever says anything wrong to you, you come and let me know, I'll straighten them out. There's so many of those old grannies are so feisty, they look so sweet, but you got to watch your back when it comes to grannies [laughs].

SENECA CHARTRAND: You said your first powwow was at WayWay, is that where you're from?

GAYLE PRUDEN: No, I'm not from WayWay. I'm from Little Saskatchewan. Where I grew up, there was at that time ... there was only like a population of five hundred people in Little Saskatchewan, and that is a Christian belt. There's Pinaymootang, Little Saskatchewan, Lake St. Martin. There's nothing but Christianity there. And, I did learn the Bible, I did learn how to sing, but it just wasn't the right thing. I didn't feel comfortable with it. But, for my grandmother's sake, I did go to church with her. I learned about the Bible. And when I started dancing, like when you go and dance at a powwow, you have to register your name, where you're from, and your age. And then, people would look 00:17:00at where I'm from, they'd look all surprised, "you're from Little Saskatchewan" because everybody knows that's a Christian belt. I said "yes, I escaped" [laughs]. So that was the first place ... my friend that does live there still dances, he's a grass dancer and he's Two-Spirited, but he dances in men's regalia.

SENECA CHARTRAND: How do you identify yourself?

GAYLE PRUDEN: Well, I live as a woman 24/7, so, to me, I am a woman. And to everybody else too I am woman, even though I never had any surgery done, I never took any pills, nothing. I just love myself for who I am, and I enjoy what Creator gave me, and I'd never change it. I am a woman.

SENECA CHARTRAND: What was it like growing up in a town like that?

GAYLE PRUDEN: In Little Sask [Saskatchewan]?

SENECA CHARTRAND: Yeah.

GAYLE PRUDEN: Oh it was, for me, like I said, it was easy. I was always with my female cousins growing up. I did have male cousins, they didn't care. I was just too ... I was because it feels like back then there was no gender. Male and female, especially when it comes to clothing, everybody wears the same thing, blue jean jackets, bell bottoms, big ugly shoes, and everybody was wearing them. So, I was able to be who I just wanted to be, you know, supported. When I first came to Winnipeg, I was maybe about seventeen, eighteen, and I picked up that 00:19:00flamboyant screaming queen sort of thing, where I totally acted ... like I was just acting gay I guess, [laughs] for another way to put it. And then when I got back to the reserve, I was still trying to act like that, and oh my god my hat almost got knocked off my wrist. My cousins said "you cut that out, what the hell is wrong with you? Don't act like that". Okay, so it's almost like I was being trained to be a woman all my life [laughs]. They never said anything about ... and we're older now they said "we love you for who you are, we always have and always will. We knew you were different, but, doesn't matter you're our family". I was always protected by them also. There's only one time that I ever 00:20:00had an incident on the reserve, but of course, my cousins were around at that time. I didn't even get a chance to respond, and it was at a party. This one guy decided he was going to come and ask me why I was a fag, and that's how he put it "why are you a fag?" I couldn't even answer that, there was a beer bottle that smashed on his forehead and he took off [laughs]. One of my cousins happened to be behind and she heard him talk to me like that and she just swung it and I was "oh my god" and all I see is a busted bottle flying around and that guy took off. So, it was easy for me. It was an easy life being Two-Spirited all my life. And I was raised by my three elders, my grandmother, my grandfather, 00:21:00and my grandfather's dad -my great-grandfather. So they raised us. There was four of us and I'm the oldest. Well, I have a baby sister, but she was never around. She was raised by my mom and dad, only we were raised by our grandparents. And it was a really good thing because we never seen alcohol, we never seen drugs, we never seen smoking around the house, so all of us ... like of course when we were younger we all had to experiment just to be a part of drinking, doing drugs. I did the whole thing, but not for long, because I never grew up with it, so it wasn't a big deal for me to have parties all the time and drinking. It was a lot of fun growing up on a reserve. I didn't really care to 00:22:00leave, nobody really wanted to leave the reserve because it was a lot of fun growing up together. Our houses were so far apart, like it would take forever to come from one house to the other, because it was a population of five hundred at that time. When I go back now, I just don't recognize anybody except for the ones I grew up with. There's so many new people on that reserve, and it's overpopulated. I don't know what the population is, but so many people are there now, I'd never be able to go home. I wouldn't feel right anyways, I'm so used to being around here where I know I have all the support I need, and I do get a lot of support.

SENECA CHARTRAND: Why did you move to Winnipeg?

GAYLE PRUDEN: My grandparents were getting old. So, they were kind of hoping my 00:23:00mother would take over, which she did, but she drank and it didn't really work out that well. But that was the reason why I had to move. It was terrible leaving the reserve, we missed it so much, but now, I don't think any of us will be able to live on a reserve because we are so used to living in a city. So that was the reason why we had to leave, because they were getting too old to take care of us.

SENECA CHARTRAND: What was it like coming from the reserve into the city?

GAYLE PRUDEN: It was quite the transition. Because of the way we lived on a reserve- it was totally different. We couldn't do what we were doing on our reserve, it was hard. And of course, there's always that trouble you can find, like it's so easy, alcohol is so easy access. It wasn't the best time of my life 00:24:00moving here. But, we survived. I'm fifty-four now, I'll be fifty-five soon, and oh my god, and I think we moved here when I was about eighteen, maybe nineteen. Well, we did come and visit once in a while when I was younger, about fourteen, thirteen, but then we always went back.

SENECA CHARTRAND: What helped you get used to the city? What helped you out of that?

GAYLE PRUDEN: My cousins started moving here, the ones I grew up with. I was so happy that day. Because they were getting older, they wanted more education, they wanted to find jobs. So, I was more at home when they were here. So, that's 00:25:00what made it easier to live in the city. But now, I wouldn't be able to leave the city, because it's so, I don't know, you get so used to living in a city, where on a reserve you need a vehicle to survive. If you don't have one, you got to pay an arm and a leg to go get your supplies for living. Here, you can walk anywhere and buy anything.

SENECA CHARTRAND: You talk about your cousins, do any of your family dance powwow?

GAYLE PRUDEN: My younger brother, he does ... well they all go to powwow. They've all been to powwows to come and support me. But, only my younger brother, the one below me, he's a men's traditional dancer. And he learned about the culture way before I did. But, that's not to say that I did grow up 00:26:00traditionally, because my great-grandfather was a medicine man, but I didn't know anything about that, like it wasn't labeled as such. It was something that he did on the side, even though he went to church. I used to just love going to church with him, simply because I loved hearing him sing. He had to most powerful voice I ever heard. When we were sitting in church, everybody is singing, and I would look at his mouth wondering "when is he going to sing?", as soon as he opened his mouth, he just over carried everybody that was in that big church, just like he was singing alone, that's how powerful his voice was.

SENECA CHARTRAND: Do you sing?

GAYLE PRUDEN: I do, yeah. Terrible, but I sing [laughs]. These are songs that I picked up, especially going into a sweat you hear elders sing these songs. When 00:27:00you go to enough sweats, they stick to your head, and you start singing them. There was this one song that didn't come to me until I was about forty, and it was a song my great-grandfather used to sing. Because back then, he had gardens, like great big gardens. He had about three of them. And he'd be out there working on his gardens, weeding, no tools, using his hands, and he grew the biggest potatoes around [laughs]. Used to sell them, put them in the cellar when they're ready to harvest, then he'd sell them by the bags. At that time when ... he'd be out there because back then it was so hot. He made his gardens where there was always sun. So anyways, he had these little - what do you call those? 00:28:00Corn? And back then, they were really high because I was just short, and I was young that time. And then I could hear him. He would say [singing in Ojibway] so that means "I'm going to sing, you dance". There was an open space there behind the corn where I used to play, I don't even know what I was playing, but that's where I spent my day while he was in the garden picking. He'd take a break and he'd start singing. Then I'd be dancing, I don't even know how I was dancing, but then I figured ... he didn't even finish his song, he would stop. And I would listen "Oh I guess it's over". Couple of times he did that, "like what's going on? He just starts the song then he stops". Until one day ... because back 00:29:00then, us kids we were never allowed to be around older people or elders when they were talking, it just was too rude for a kid to go around listening when adults are talking. So, I happened to be in the hallway, and all three of them were talking in the living room. And they were all talking Ojibway, that's why I talk Ojibway now. I speak fluent and I understand it because we grew up with it. All of us grew up with Ojibway language. They were talking, and I could hear my great-grandfather telling my grandfather [Ojibway]. He was saying, in translation he was saying he was getting me to dance, but I was dancing so hard, 00:30:00he could see the dust coming over on the other side of the corn, that's when he stopped and started laughing [laughs]. When I'm thinking about that, that song that he used to sing, that's what came to me when I was forty. It bothered me so much. Like where did I hear this song? I kept hearing it, and I kept hearing it, and I just couldn't place where I heard it. And that's that song he used to sing in the garden. And it's just so incredible the words that are in that song- is what I do now. So it's almost like Creator gave him the song, because Creator already set my life on what I'm going to do. The way that song goes [singing in Ojibway] "the whole of this earth I rattle and shake". And when you think about 00:31:00it, I'm in a jingle dress. And you could hear that echo of the jingles all over the world. Because if you check on YouTube on dancing there, and everybody records everybody, I'm not the only one dancing, but I dance by, and that was the song he sang [singing in Ojibway] "the whole of this earth I rattle and shake". So, I was just so flabbergasted that putting those two together like "oh my god" [laughs]. And I do share that song once in a while. I love that song. It was his song. And when I do sing it, I'll sing it for women sometimes. Sometimes I go to theses women's group and they listen. They've never heard it before, I said "well of course you're never going to hear it, you weren't in the garden" [laughs]. But then they said "but the way that song goes, it's just like where 00:32:00did he get that song from? It's almost like a really ancient song. These songs sound so ancient. He must have got that from somebody learning how to sing". Also, getting back to where I said he was a medicine man, I wish I could remember but I don't. He used to take me out to the bush, and he'd be picking medicines. And there was this special place where, way out in the bush, he built himself this little log cabin. I remember it, I went because he took me there a couple of times. And in the shelf, he had a bunch of shelves, there was big bottles, and those were all medicine. And a lot of people used to come and see him, and they would leave with that medicine. So, he was a medicine man, even 00:33:00though he went to church. He was both Christian and traditional. And also my grandmother ... when I first heard about "vision quest", I said "hey, wait a minute, my grandmother used to do that to me", where I'd get so mad, because I was the oldest doing everything. And sometimes, I would get so frustrated, and then she'll get me to go for a walk. She goes "go as far as you can into the bush, and you find a place where you can sit. Just sit there and think. When you feel better, you come home". So take off, just mad hitting trees, hitting bushes, just storming. Finally, I started calming down, and I'd sit down somewhere in a good spot. Then finally, I laid down and I just felt so relaxed being ... like it's almost being in the wild. And then I'd be looking at the 00:34:00tees, and I'd look at the suns in the sky. The next thing it sounded like you could hear songs in the trees, as the winds go by. It's almost like a whistle. And these songs are coming out of there. And I'd fall asleep. And you can hear little animals, walking around. Everything. If you go into the bush, and just listen, you'll hear the singing, you'll hear these animals. So, that was like a vision quest that she was doing to me when I was younger. And when I heard about the vision quests they're doing now, I said "oh my god, my grandmother used to do that me too. I'd go there and I'd hear all these [laughs] ... so spiritual" [laughs].

SENECA CHARTRAND: Who do you still talk to in your family?

GAYLE PRUDEN: Pardon me?

SENECA CHARTRAND: Who do you talk to in your family? Like how many family members?

GAYLE PRUDEN: All of them. We all stay in touch. They love me for who I am. All my nieces and nephews call me aunty. My brothers, they call me their sister, and I'm fine with that. But once in a while, they'll slip up and call me their brother, which doesn't bother me one bit, simply because they don't really know too much about two-spirited -well, they know me. I did introduce them to a lot of people of two-spirted people. [Interview Interruption]. They respect me for 00:36:00who I am. And I'm really proud of my baby brother because one of his little boys, he's only seven or eight, is a trans [transgender]. He started wearing dresses. He felt more comfortable in dresses, and they let him. She does look like a little girl. The only problem they had was in school, they didn't know how to deal with her because she was so young. But, they need these teaching tools too in the school, let them know it doesn't matter what age you are, to let them be what they want to be. So, I'm really proud of her, and my brother, and my sister-in-law that they're raising a trans. She's so happy when she's wearing a dress, and she's so girly, but not over girly. It's almost like a 00:37:00little miniature me [laughs]. And I'm really glad that they're supporting her for who she wants to be, and her life is going to be so good because of that.

SENECA CHARTRAND: Do you get to spend a lot of time with her?

GAYLE PRUDEN: No, because I'm never home. I'm always on the go. I'm just way too busy. I never really see them. But they call, they'll phone me, and I try to make an effort to go and see them, and be with them. I do see them once in a while, and she embraces me, she runs and "hi aunty" and come and give me a hug. And I just looked at her "oh my god. A little me" [laughs].

SENECA CHARTRAND: Is there anything that maybe I haven't asked that you want to talk about? Anything you want to bring up?

GAYLE PRUDEN: No, I think we pretty much covered it. I should talk a little bit about that little CBC [news station] interview I did. CBC was after me before, trying to get me to talk about my life. But I found at that time, nobody needs to know, this is my private life, and I'd like to keep it that way. But then, I looked at it a different way, where maybe, it's time I do something, and I do talk about myself where this could open a door for other younger two-spirited people who are scared to come into the sacred ground where we dance powwows and everything. And in there, I talk about that where it's okay, two-spirited people 00:39:00are loved when they come into the circle because ... we need to get back to where it used to be where ... well I shouldn't say pedestals, but need it, in their communities as two-spirited people as long as we do it in the right way in a good way. So, that was the message I tried to get into that. And I think he did a really good job, because that reporter there- I forget his name already, he came to my house, he did that little interview, then he also followed me to the powwow, and put it all together and you can see it. It's on YouTube, it went viral. All you need to do is click in "CBC Two-Spirit Dancer" and it has my name on there, Gayle Pruden. I say people should look at it, because it went viral, 00:40:00and they're already using it as a teaching tool. In Toronto, they sent me this picture where they have me up on a really big screen. There's a bunch of youth sitting around there watching, and I was "oh my god" I said, "that's so wonderful to know they're using that as a teaching tool, especially in a powwow". And what I talked about was how sacred this regalia is, everything that Creator gives you is sacred. You're given these tools for a reason, use them in the right way, and get all the teachings you can behind all of them.

SENECA CHARTRAND: When you mentioned powwow, did you mean the Two-Spirit powwow in Winnipeg?

GAYLE PRUDEN: No, not Two-Spirit powwows, like regular powwows. Because I go to a lot of powwows and I see two-spirited people like all curled up. They don't 00:41:00want to come in, and usually those are the ones I go and attack- well I shouldn't say attack, but make them feel comfortable, invite them in; "you belong in the circle, you should come in, you're at this powwow for a reason, right? So come on in. Come in, you don't need to dance, as long as you walk". Because in a scared circle, there is grandmothers and grandfathers spirits in there. And it's just so wonderful to feel. It gives you a really good feeling that you're in the circle because it's so sacred. These two-spirited people are like me when I was younger. I didn't want to go anywhere closed, but now its opening doors, where it's okay to come in, even just walk, as long as you do it respectfully, and in a good way.

SENECA CHARTRAND: Thank you.

GAYLE PRUDEN: You're welcome. Hope I did okay.