Interview with Vanessa Tait

 CONNIE MERASTY: We're live, and I'm here. This is Connie Merasty and I'm here to interviewing Vanessa. Okay Vanessa, is this your first time at a gathering?

VANESSA TAIT: Yes, at a Two-Spirit gathering? Yes, this is my first time.

CONNIE MERASTY: What brought you to the gathering?

VANESSA TAIT: Well I haven't ever attended a Two-Spirit gathering, and I've attended all other like different gatherings, and I just find that while attending other gatherings that I've attended in the community, there's really no ... what I find is like finding my place in the circle, right? I kind of often feel that I kind of just sneak in to the gatherings, and I try and see if they mention anything around two-spirited roles, traditional roles, and that's kind of what now in my journey that I'm finding with my identity is, you know? I 00:01:00know I'm a [Cree word], which is the "Cree woman", and so, I searched that part of my identity. And when it came to the two-spirited side of who I am, I have been searching to find a place where I can ask questions around being Two-Spirited, so and then as well as Albert has been a guide for me in my life when it came to being Two-Spirited. He has embraced who I was, and I'd ask him questions. I had an opportunity to actually present with him for the first time. I always say it's my coming out to the public [laughs]. We presented at the University of Manitoba, and that's the first time I ever shared my story and my journey of embracing the two-spirited side of myself. When I knew the gathering was coming ... we actually have a gathering back home, which is an annual 00:02:00gathering. It's a summer gathering, and its returning home which is [Cree word] summer gathering. I'm always there every year. And then this year, it happens at the same time. So, I made a choice that I wanted to come to the Two-Spirited gathering, because I knew that I'd be able to be welcomed, and feel comfortable, and hear teachings, and be around people who are embracing that side of themselves. So, I decided that it was my choice to come here. It was kind of interesting because I didn't ... my mom was all like "are you coming home?" and I'm like "no". I never really came out to really tell her [laughs] that I made the choice to come to the Two-Spirit gathering, because I was kind of somewhat still had that fear that I would still have that judgment from my family side. So, I just said "no I have other plans". I am going to be thirty-five, so in my 00:03:00journeys, I decided that it's time for me to live my life, and to live my journeys, and that's the choice I made was to come to the Two-Spirit gathering. I didn't know what to expect. Yesterday, when I first came on Saturday, I came with just me [laughs] and I didn't bring anything with me because I wasn't sure what to expect. I didn't really ask anybody any questions. I guess I could have asked Albert like "what are you guys doing?" But I just came, because I just wanted to see how things were. I had an amazing time yesterday. That was my choice, was that I wanted to come and be with the people who honoured who I was in being Two-Spirited.

CONNIE MERASTY: Where are you from?

VANESSA TAIT: I am originally from O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation, also known as 00:04:00South Indian Lake Manitoba, and that's in northern Manitoba. I've lived in Winnipeg I guess about - - I'd say eleven to twelve years.

CONNIE MERASTY: How do you identify yourself in terms ... maybe for better - - reference I guess, around your sexuality? How do you label yourself?

VANESSA TAIT: When I first discovered my identity as who I am as a Two-Spirited, the first sexuality that I identified was lesbian. Growing up, I seen gay men in my community, but I never really seen any lesbians. But I knew at a young age that there was something different about me, but because you don't see it around you, you don't how to identify, and so I didn't. I didn't say anything about it, 00:05:00I just kept it hidden. Like "I don't know what this is". Then in high school, was the very first time I heard "lesbian". I kind of watched [laughs] these lesbians in high school, and that's when I first felt like "hey, I think I can identify as a lesbian, because it looks like they're walking that way that I feel comfortable with". So I identified as a lesbian for ... but I hid it still, right? I didn't come out and say "my name is Vanessa and I'm a lesbian". And then I came across the term "Two-Spirited", and that just resonated a lot more with me. I came to Winnipeg for school, so I started reading books, I started meeting people, and I met Albert, and then the term "Two-Spirit" came. So now I 00:06:00identify as Two-Spirited. I don't really say "I'm lesbian" I just say "Two-Spirited" and "I'm me" and "this is who I am". When people have a conversation with me, that's when I'll get more comfortable in saying - - because people are like okay "do you identify as a lesbian? Is that your sexuality?" so I say "yeah, that's basically ... I'm sexually attracted to women, I'm emotionally attracted to women, I'm intellectually attracted to women" so I've kind of explored the term. Then came the part about "are you a femme lesbian? Or are you a butch lesbian?" [Laughs] Oh my god! Well I said "I'm just me". I do have short hair, sometimes I do dress in boy-ish clothes, so they 00:07:00are like "are you trying to change yourself into a male?" and I'm like "no". I also don't wake up every morning saying "you know what? I'm going to be a boy today", or "I'm going to be a girl today". Its society I think that defines those terms when they meet me. I've been in women's bathrooms where people are like "oh you're in the wrong washroom" [laughs] and I'm like "no, actually I'm not, this is a women's bathroom, so I'm coming into the women's bathroom. I do identify as a woman". Sometimes I wear dresses, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I put on makeup. I don't put on makeup because it just takes forever to put on. If my friends are going to put on makeup I'm like "you do it". I have walked the way I feel comfortable, and the way my spirit guides me in the places that I go. Even when it comes to traditional spaces that we get into, most of the times I 00:08:00will wear a skirt, only because of my respect for the protocol; the person who is conducting the ceremony. There has been places where I kind of felt that I just didn't feel comfortable, just because of ... they always talk about male and female roles, and I'm like "okay, where do I fit in all this stuff as a two-spirited person". Every space that I get into, that's what I look at. I'm like "where do we fit in this circle?" so I always say that I'm finding my place in a circle. Sometimes, I'll pick my battles and ill mention "where do we fit as two-spirited people?" But for the most part, I kind of just sit back, and just sit there, and however the room wants to identify me I guess I will. But, I've 00:09:00been in a ceremony where I conducted the women's part of it [laughs]. And I had a really hard time, and it was really interesting because I didn't know why I was struggling. And then after the ceremony, the person that I had passed tobacco to, got me to come sit with him and he said "you struggled, but only because you wanted to embrace your masculine side" and that was the very first time I felt comfortable with ... he was in the terms of what society is; he was straight, he wasn't gay in no means. And it was the first time that someone had said that "masculine side of you". Because I do feel it there, there's times when I feel it and I'm like "what is this?" and for the most part I walk. I know 00:10:00that I'm caregiver. I can give birth. I do have those parts in that part of me. The LGBTQ community will say I identify more so lesbian, but I'm learning as of all the terms. There's so many terms out there. So I'm like "okay well queer sounds I guess more - - I guess fluid". So I'm learning from other people. Because everybody always comes to me, and they think I know everything about being gay, or being lesbian, and I'm like "no I only know my own journey". I said if you want to know about another individual, I said "you're going to have to ask them", because for me, I said "I only know what I feel inside and what's comfortable with me, so I can't speak on behalf of anybody else". And I don't 00:11:00think anybody should be speaking on behalf of anybody else unless you give permission from everybody. For the most part, Two-Spirited has been a term that now I embrace, and I move forward with, until someone wants to further know more about other things about me [laughs].

CONNIE MERASTY: Can you tell me a little bit about your community, or how you define community in your own life? Where that community is at?

VANESSA TAIT: For myself, like I said I'm from O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation. I grew up there most of my life. That is my childhood community, and that is where I feel my connection to the land, to the space, and to the place, right? That's where my family is. I could say that for myself, community has been - like this, 00:12:00this is a community. When I got disowned - - at twenty years old, I guess you could say, when my parents first found out about me ... I realized that quickly changed. Like I said, I do come from O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation. However, when I was disowned, I got a disconnection from that community, from my family, and I was like "okay". So, when someone says "where are you from?" I'll always say that. And so, when I did get disowned, I had to slowly find other family, and find other spaces. So, I've come across a lot of different circles that I've been a part of, and that have embraced me, and then I have been a part of my 00:13:00family in my community. They're not biologically related to me, however, like you know, for the first, I think when I was going kind of through a hard time there I came across a program called Moon Voices and there's a lot of women in there that I call to this day my sisters, my moon sisters, because they helped me in such a difficult time in my life when I got disowned. So, that for me is my community, my family. And then when I came to Winnipeg, well you know, I came to Winnipeg quite a number of years ago, and I think you know for me, I say "I'm from Winnipeg". I feel more comfortable as a two-spirited person in Winnipeg because you could hide very easily, but also you can find the spaces that embrace and actually accept you for who you are, and have no judgment. And so, I 00:14:00have friends that have family members, or even children that are Two-Spirited. I just feel comfortable in being in their space, because it's still to this day, something that we don't talk about in my family. I have other different spaces, like I have been a part of I guess the university community, where I've had to study. And I've always said that education has been my healing journey, because I do a lot of papers. I did write a paper about Two-Spirited and my identity. In that space, like the academics or whatever, but I've met a lot of different people in that community and in that space. So, community to me is just basically the people who invite me but also accept me in their circle, so there's a lot of different spaces that I've come throughout my life. So, 00:15:00community I don't think is really ... I guess it's fluid as well too, if you want to say that. It's basically as an individual where you fit and you feel comfortable.

CONNIE MERASTY: So where do you feel most safe, and why?

VANESSA TAIT: In terms of safety - - the way I define, I guess being more safe is basically places where I don't have to have fear, or where ... I really believe in my gut instinct, so when I walk in spaces or different areas and I feel like "ah this just doesn't feel right". It's something that I didn't know 00:16:00before, and I've come to ... because people will say that they feel safe in their communities, and their reserves, where their family is. And I do feel safe with my family, however, when I go home, I can go home for probably two weeks at a time. And I feel comfortable when I go home, like I feel like I needed to go beyond the land. However there's certain things that happened in my childhood that have taken that safety away, that I get kind of anxious when I get home too, and I'm like "ah ok". It's a place of healing for me, but also a place of 00:17:00hurt. In that sense, I just stay home with my family in my house and go to different places and visit however I wouldn't necessarily say that my safety net is my community. For the most part, the places I feel safe is the places where I can actually just - - like I said not have fear and have courage to just basically say what I need to say. Like if I feel crappy and down in the dumps, and feel like ... where there's no judgment, where you feel that people are just there to ... you know even listen to you, because sometimes you just need to go and talk. And people I've met along my journey have listened to me, but also have given me guidance, and told me there's nothing wrong with you as a 00:18:00two-spirited person, and have given me some healing as well too. So for me, those spaces that I said I can go in and just be able to embrace who I am and talk about different things that are affecting me. Like I think one topic that's really - - for me -- I get embarrassed about it, but in the same sense, I'm like its things that have come across that I know that have affected me, and is because of who I am as a two-spirited person. I struggled with that part of my identity, only for ... because you think ... you know, you're the baby girl of 00:19:00the family. Your family, should always be there for you. When they disowned me, I kind of went through a little bit of a part of my life where I was like "maybe I should just not be here" [long pause]. And I didn't know where to go and talk about those things. But, I've come across some people who have sat with me, and I basically told them "it's real". I said "those feelings are real regardless" ... people are like ... "you have your Master's degree, you have a job, you have 00:20:00this, you have that". And I'm like "it doesn't matter". Those feelings are real and I said "when they come, is because people don't embrace you in the spaces that you go into". When that part of me comes out, and those feelings come out, that place is safety for me. I have a really close circle of people that I've met along the way that I know regardless if I'm feeling crappy, have been on the [unclear] for about three days. Thankfully I don't do drugs, but I've tried it once, and have just been -- like just sat there and just said "it's okay. Cry. Do what you need to do. Be angry. Just let it out". It's a lot of things that 00:21:00you keep inside. But, I realized that I suppressed a lot of things to make people feel comfortable with me. And so, I don't necessarily just be myself in a lot of different places, because I've found that they're not open to accepting you. I always say the circle, because it doesn't matter if there's two people, or three people, that's a good space; is that conversation that's happening. I've hidden a lot of myself, and a lot of who I am, because ... just to make others feel comfortable around me, and just so that I could sit there. And I realized that I need to stop doing that, because it gets me sick, and starts 00:22:00making me feel crappy, and makes me feel like ... I go home, and I'm like "oh hey, that was a hard day", and then I still don't feel good about myself. And it might even be like traditional spaces, places of healing that you're supposed to be feeling good about yourself. And then I go home, and I take it home, and I cry, by myself. [Interview interruption]. For me, that was a good breather actually [laughs]. For me, places of safety, it's hard to find. It's really hard to find as whatever you're going through to find those. But just yesterday, I did come with my friend. She is not two-spirited, however she wanted to come. 00:23:00She decided to come with me and we've been talking about it. I've been a part of different circles as her, and I said "you know what, this is really interesting", I said "how two-spirited people aren't accepted in so many spaces". When I was here yesterday, it was awesome, because I was like this is the very first time hearing stories, different spaces -- circles that were happening, and different things, and people just being able to express a lot of things that I have different circles that I express. But to be able to just do it all in one space and not have judgment, just being accepted for the place you are in your life. And so, I think coming here has given me that space and that 00:24:00safety of being able to just be me, have fun. There's laughter, there's different teachings, and there's different elders that are here. I was actually just at a traditional healers gathering, and it was interesting to see them choosing elders from five different language groups [laughs]. And I was all like "oh my god, what's missing? Well where is the two-spirited elder?" I'm like "they're considered healers as well too". And so for me, it's like that place of safety is not there ... because at least give that option, right? So I'm like "there's not a lot of options that we have". [Interview interruption]. So I 00:25:00guess ultimately, the place of safety that I really feel in all the places that I've been, is just with my own gut feeling [laughs]. And understanding, and knowing what that feeling is now, because that's the spirit reminding you that maybe this might not be the place for you. And so, I've done a lot of different things on my own ... when I get invited to things I go, if it feels right, right? But like I said, more and more now, I'm finding as a two-spirited person that I'm not going to hide that part of me anymore. If you want to invite me to your circle, you're going to invite all of me. That's kind of ultimately the biggest safety, is just finding where you feel comfortable, and where you feel 00:26:00safe, and where you're not going to feel crappy at the end of the day leaving a space.

CONNIE MERASTY: Okay, thank you Vanessa. Oh darn, [unclear]

VANESSA TAIT: [Laughs]

CONNIE MERASTY: Hold on!

VANESSA TAIT: Did I remind you? I've done interviews before too.

CONNIE MERASTY: Do you agree or do you consent to this interview Vanessa?

VANESSA TAIT: Yes I do.

CONNIE MERASTY: Okay, thank you.

VANESSA TAIT: So, in my story, I did mention when I first embraced being two-spirited, I was disowned by my family. However, my family has now ... I do ... we've got a connection again. I find in embracing more of who I am, and they understand, and like it's not something we talk about at the kitchen table. However, my connection with my mom is very strong. She's like my best friend, she's accepted a lot of different things about me being a two-spirited person now, in her own little way. And it's kind of cute because I do see she knows that that's me, and that's who her baby girl is. Now, I do have ... I'm connected back with my family. There's not a disconnect anymore. But I went through that process of being away from them for a while, but I think Creator puts things in your path for a reason. So that disconnect provided me an opportunity to connect with other people and to connect with other spaces. I've 00:27:00grown my family circle, and now, I'm introducing them to my biological family, and to my mom and dad whenever my family comes into the city. My mom sees that there's a lot of people that I've come across on my path that have helped me when my family wasn't there. And so, my mom sees that there's a lot of people that love me, and I think that helps her. For me that helps her. Again, I often wondered and wondered why I was disowned. Like what was the purpose? But I think I've let that go, and just kind of let it be. I've told myself that my family will always be invited into my home, regardless, but it's their choice if they want to enter that door. It's their choice if they want to come, and be a part 00:28:00of the circles that I'm a part of. I'm not going to force that on to them. But, they'll always know that I'm their daughter, and I come from ... I'm proud of where I come from, I'm proud of who I am. And they gave my life, right? There was a reason for Creator choosing my parents that they chose. I've come to an acceptance, as well of their choices, and them saying that I can't force who I am as a two-spirited person onto my family, my community, anybody that I come across. It's up to them if they want to walk beside me, and walk alongside me in any journey that I go on. I'm never going to say "no because you don't accept me as a two-spirited person you can't come with me". It's basically I have to accept that there's certain things that have happened in our path of 00:29:00colonization of residential schools, and you know, there's so much disruption of Christianity. I basically accept what it is that they made me feel the reason why they don't want to walk with me. I have to just embrace that, because I know that there's a lot of other people that I come across in my journeys. I love my family, I love my parents, and I wouldn't be here if it weren't for them. So I think for the most part, that there was a disruption and disconnection, but were reconnected back, and I'm glad for that. But, I will never change who I am and the reason why Creator put me here just to make anybody feel comfortable, and I don't expect anybody else to do the same. Okay, that's it.

CONNIE MERASTY: Meegwetch. Thank you.